The Wolfenstein for Doomsday mod - Page 2

KuriKai · January 7th, 2009, 02:06 PM

you can get the wolftc source from http://deng.svn.sourceforge.net/view.../?pathrev=6062 I believe it needs a lot of changes to be fixed up to work with the current svn and the future beta-6

Vermil · January 7th, 2009, 02:36 PM

Indeed, it is also way out of date, as in well over a year. A copy of most of the src was placed in the Dday SVN way back, but I was never given the access rights to commit anything.

So I continued my work in personal branches, with Deng teams knowledge, which were sadly what I lost recently when I reformatted due to a mess up in my backups.

But, thanks for trying to help of course

doomjedi · January 7th, 2009, 10:28 PM

Apology accepted

Still...I'm happy to know that at least some version of the source was not lost

And AFAIK - "over a year" - still put' it with most of its features

Vermil · January 8th, 2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomjedi

And AFAIK - "over a year" - still put' it with most of its features

That's because you left the project then.

Still, a very large ammount of the TC's features are indeed actually done completely with external deds, which I still have.

MrGoat · January 8th, 2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuriKai

you can get the wolftc source from http://deng.svn.sourceforge.net/view.../?pathrev=6062 I believe it needs a lot of changes to be fixed up to work with the current svn and the future beta-6

Indeed - it has a lot of bit rot, and I'm sure the reason it was rejected from the deng svn, is the general belief that the deng team, and their downstreams, would be the ones that would end up maintaining it, and keeping it up to date with regards to any engine changes, rather than the apparently rather dysfunctional wolftc team.

**EDIT**
Question: People have been banned here for less abusive things that wholesale vandalism of this forum - why is vandalism not a bannable offence, yet telling abusive users where to go is ?

doomjedi · January 8th, 2009, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermil

That's because you left the project then.

Well...that's why I used the "AFAIK"

Vermil · January 8th, 2009, 02:44 AM

From Corr7TC I have gained lot's more knowledge of working with ded's.

Combined with the additional editing features of the latest Dday 1.9 Beta's over 1.8.6, I have concluded that I over relied on src editing in some areas of making WolfTC, when it probably actually wasn't nesscerry.

Vermil · January 14th, 2009, 04:19 AM

Following on from my above post...

I've currently taken WolfTC to a non-src based TC.

I've finally given up the ghost of trying to find someone skilled with editing Dday's src code. Well I say that, I had tried to learn it myself more than once, when I ran into difficulties trying to find someone (thanks in at least part to the teams "public debates"). But ultimately, I have found it beyond my ability. I do have a src based version of the TC built on 1.8.6 (I lost the 1.9 version with my afore mentioned reformat), that includes among other things a hacked in score system based off the code for the armour counter, but it was only set up for treasure items before I lost the src.

Certainly, this means WolfTC won't have all the planned things; a fair few things are going to have to be dropped. For instance several of the TC's new bad guys will probably lose their unique behaviour trait's (I didn't just throw in new bad guys for the hell of it. I did try to make each of them unique in some way).

It's also going to make a couple of low level things different from Wolf3D itself. For instance, without the src, I can't have bosses drop key's and so may have to "automatically unlock" the doors a bosses key would be used for.

Though, it's not all "bad news". Since 1.8.6, a few new editing features have been added to Dday that mean some things that 1.8.6 couldn't do without editing the src are now ded based. Not least is the ability to control level progression (i.e. secret exits).

As for a release. Well that all depends on:

A. How quickly things can be converted. Currently, I have almost completely done Wolf, Sod, the SODMP's and the Wolf Alpha. I'm looking at SAEL, OMS1+2 and Uranus. SAEL will a piece of cake, Uranus will be pretty easy as well. OMS1+2 may be unworkable without src modification (unless some new editing features turn up

), as in too much may have to be given up in taking it off the src to make it worthwhile.

B. The stability of Beta6. Beta5 is sadly to buggy to release a mod for. Though I will say, many of the bugs that affect the modding side of Dday do remain in SVN release r6160, which doesn't bode well.

doomjedi · January 15th, 2009, 01:44 AM

Thank you for that post, Vermil.
It does clear many things up.

DaniJ · January 15th, 2009, 02:18 AM

Remember, its beta for a reason. If you release a mod which relies on behaviour and/or features of a beta release there is no guarantee that it will work with the final release. All in all, its not a good idea developing mods for beta software.

With this in mind, its one of the reasons why fixes to modding features are currently quite low priority. Development of the new Doomsday 1.9.x architecture is happening at a much higher level and we are not infrequently rewriting great swathes of the engine. Consequently, spending too much time on fixing this stuff now would be a waste of time given that in all likely-hood we'll be rewriting that part of the engine in beta7 anyway, heh.

For beta6 I'm aiming for higher quality than previous betas but remember, it is still a beta.

doomjedi · January 15th, 2009, 04:34 AM

Danj does have a point here.

Well...Doomsday is just not modding-oriented port. That's the thing. There are not too many Doomsday-specific mods, and at all....and tools...and for a reason. Doomsday is more oriented on enhancing original game experience and not towards the Doom modding community, that is massively sitting on zDoom, GZDoom and Skulltag forums.
It's clear even from Doomsday developer's posts.

That's why I don't consider Doomsday an engine I'd like to mod for.
I play old zDoom mods....and all run well even in the newest zDoom versions...so noone on zDoom forum has "Vermil's Dilemma" to what zDoom beta to develop their mod for...if it runs on current one - it'll probably run on next one as well.
All those headakes and delays.... what can I say....
If you are a mazohist - you should mod on Doomsday. "Normal" guys use GzDoom.

MrGoat · January 15th, 2009, 04:49 AM

I would advise to not try and modify the gameplay for doomsday at this time (development in flux, lack of developers, no firm release date), but instead focus on graphical mods, much like sitters earlier work before he went to risen3d. That stuff looked good, and worked well on doomsday.

If you insist on wanting to do gameplay mods, them you just have to learn to build doomsday from source, and be prepared to redo work if things change breaking the mod.

DaniJ · January 15th, 2009, 09:20 AM

Lack of developers? I really don't think we have a problem due to lack of progress, lol. Check out our CIA page sometime

As far as I'm concerned if you build your mod to work with a beta version of an application you are bound to run into "issues". No point crying when something changes.

Doomsday 1.8.6 is the current stable release. If you develop mods for 1.8.6 you'll have no trouble running them with 1.9.0 (when final) bar perhaps some minute differences due to the fact the engine has changed so radically.

Why are there no Doomsday-specific tools? Simply because none are needed. The only job that does require a special tool in order to accomplish is the conversion between MD2 and DMD and well, we already have md2tool for that.

doomjedi · January 15th, 2009, 10:43 AM

Well...AFAIK Vermil wanted the Scoring System not existing in 1.8.6...so he tried his chance with latest betas

Vermil · January 15th, 2009, 11:28 AM

Jedi, While ultimately, src editing was beyond me, I didn't say that I wasn't able to code some things in. It was a major hack job, but I managed to make a basic score system using the armour counter as a base, as an example.

doomjedi · January 16th, 2009, 12:02 AM

Well...anyway IMO your "waiting for next beta/release" tactic has failed. I agree with DaniJ that you should plan and mod based on features already existing...or pick another port for modding that allows such features.

Modding on Doomsday IMO is a brave decision, and though I myself would not pick Doomsday port for modding - I can respect that you might prefer it for your mod, probably for the visual reasons.

But you should disconnect your mod progress from Doomsday progress. Anything other than that is a big mistake IMO.

skitey · March 13th, 2009, 04:43 AM

hmmmpf....seems that this project is dead now, or?

Vermil · March 15th, 2009, 02:13 AM

Not at tall. It is my intention to convert WolfTC to non-src based.

1.9 Beta5 and Beta6 of Doomsday have added numerous new editing features that allow me to do quite a lot of what I did on the 1.8.6 src via ded in one way or another.

A couple of little things I had coded in the 1.8.6 src have to be dropped, but the pay off of not being forced to use an anarchic version of Dday is more than worth it IMO.

Of course 1.9 Beta5 and Beta6 are currently in an unsuitable state for modding, given that they are beta's and all, so I can't release anything until the 1.9 series becomes closer to completion.

KuriKai · April 18th, 2009, 05:26 AM

So how is this mod coming along now?

RakniGX · June 25th, 2009, 03:12 PM

when does this come out

January 7th, 2009, 02:36 PM	#22
Vermil Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,261	Indeed, it is also way out of date, as in well over a year. A copy of most of the src was placed in the Dday SVN way back, but I was never given the access rights to commit anything. So I continued my work in personal branches, with Deng teams knowledge, which were sadly what I lost recently when I reformatted due to a mess up in my backups. But, thanks for trying to help of course Last edited by Vermil; January 7th, 2009 at 02:53 PM.

January 7th, 2009, 10:28 PM	#23
doomjedi Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 1,189	Apology accepted Still...I'm happy to know that at least some version of the source was not lost And AFAIK - "over a year" - still put' it with most of its features __________________ Proud "Skulltag" and "WolfTC for Doomsday" sprite artist and active Wolf3d modder. Current in-work wolf3d mods: "SonderKommando Revolt" and "Secret of Eridu" http://doomjedi.page.tl/

January 14th, 2009, 04:19 AM	#28
Vermil Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,261	Following on from my above post... I've currently taken WolfTC to a non-src based TC. I've finally given up the ghost of trying to find someone skilled with editing Dday's src code. Well I say that, I had tried to learn it myself more than once, when I ran into difficulties trying to find someone (thanks in at least part to the teams "public debates"). But ultimately, I have found it beyond my ability. I do have a src based version of the TC built on 1.8.6 (I lost the 1.9 version with my afore mentioned reformat), that includes among other things a hacked in score system based off the code for the armour counter, but it was only set up for treasure items before I lost the src. Certainly, this means WolfTC won't have all the planned things; a fair few things are going to have to be dropped. For instance several of the TC's new bad guys will probably lose their unique behaviour trait's (I didn't just throw in new bad guys for the hell of it. I did try to make each of them unique in some way). It's also going to make a couple of low level things different from Wolf3D itself. For instance, without the src, I can't have bosses drop key's and so may have to "automatically unlock" the doors a bosses key would be used for. Though, it's not all "bad news". Since 1.8.6, a few new editing features have been added to Dday that mean some things that 1.8.6 couldn't do without editing the src are now ded based. Not least is the ability to control level progression (i.e. secret exits). As for a release. Well that all depends on: A. How quickly things can be converted. Currently, I have almost completely done Wolf, Sod, the SODMP's and the Wolf Alpha. I'm looking at SAEL, OMS1+2 and Uranus. SAEL will a piece of cake, Uranus will be pretty easy as well. OMS1+2 may be unworkable without src modification (unless some new editing features turn up ), as in too much may have to be given up in taking it off the src to make it worthwhile. B. The stability of Beta6. Beta5 is sadly to buggy to release a mod for. Though I will say, many of the bugs that affect the modding side of Dday do remain in SVN release r6160, which doesn't bode well. Last edited by Vermil; January 14th, 2009 at 04:45 AM.

January 15th, 2009, 01:44 AM	#29
doomjedi Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 1,189	Thank you for that post, Vermil. It does clear many things up. __________________ Proud "Skulltag" and "WolfTC for Doomsday" sprite artist and active Wolf3d modder. Current in-work wolf3d mods: "SonderKommando Revolt" and "Secret of Eridu" http://doomjedi.page.tl/

January 15th, 2009, 04:34 AM	#31
doomjedi Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 1,189	Danj does have a point here. Well...Doomsday is just not modding-oriented port. That's the thing. There are not too many Doomsday-specific mods, and at all....and tools...and for a reason. Doomsday is more oriented on enhancing original game experience and not towards the Doom modding community, that is massively sitting on zDoom, GZDoom and Skulltag forums. It's clear even from Doomsday developer's posts. That's why I don't consider Doomsday an engine I'd like to mod for. I play old zDoom mods....and all run well even in the newest zDoom versions...so noone on zDoom forum has "Vermil's Dilemma" to what zDoom beta to develop their mod for...if it runs on current one - it'll probably run on next one as well. All those headakes and delays.... what can I say.... If you are a mazohist - you should mod on Doomsday. "Normal" guys use GzDoom. __________________ Proud "Skulltag" and "WolfTC for Doomsday" sprite artist and active Wolf3d modder. Current in-work wolf3d mods: "SonderKommando Revolt" and "Secret of Eridu" http://doomjedi.page.tl/

January 7th, 2009, 02:06 PM	#21
KuriKai Commander Keen Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,274	you can get the wolftc source from http://deng.svn.sourceforge.net/view.../?pathrev=6062 I believe it needs a lot of changes to be fixed up to work with the current svn and the future beta-6

January 8th, 2009, 02:44 AM	#27
Vermil Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,261	From Corr7TC I have gained lot's more knowledge of working with ded's. Combined with the additional editing features of the latest Dday 1.9 Beta's over 1.8.6, I have concluded that I over relied on src editing in some areas of making WolfTC, when it probably actually wasn't nesscerry.

January 15th, 2009, 02:18 AM	#30
DaniJ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 4,916	Remember, its beta for a reason. If you release a mod which relies on behaviour and/or features of a beta release there is no guarantee that it will work with the final release. All in all, its not a good idea developing mods for beta software. With this in mind, its one of the reasons why fixes to modding features are currently quite low priority. Development of the new Doomsday 1.9.x architecture is happening at a much higher level and we are not infrequently rewriting great swathes of the engine. Consequently, spending too much time on fixing this stuff now would be a waste of time given that in all likely-hood we'll be rewriting that part of the engine in beta7 anyway, heh. For beta6 I'm aiming for higher quality than previous betas but remember, it is still a beta.

January 15th, 2009, 04:49 AM	#32
MrGoat Commander Keen Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 11	I would advise to not try and modify the gameplay for doomsday at this time (development in flux, lack of developers, no firm release date), but instead focus on graphical mods, much like sitters earlier work before he went to risen3d. That stuff looked good, and worked well on doomsday. If you insist on wanting to do gameplay mods, them you just have to learn to build doomsday from source, and be prepared to redo work if things change breaking the mod.

January 15th, 2009, 09:20 AM	#33
DaniJ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 4,916	Lack of developers? I really don't think we have a problem due to lack of progress, lol. Check out our CIA page sometime As far as I'm concerned if you build your mod to work with a beta version of an application you are bound to run into "issues". No point crying when something changes. Doomsday 1.8.6 is the current stable release. If you develop mods for 1.8.6 you'll have no trouble running them with 1.9.0 (when final) bar perhaps some minute differences due to the fact the engine has changed so radically. Why are there no Doomsday-specific tools? Simply because none are needed. The only job that does require a special tool in order to accomplish is the conversion between MD2 and DMD and well, we already have md2tool for that. Last edited by DaniJ; January 15th, 2009 at 09:30 AM.

January 15th, 2009, 10:43 AM	#34
doomjedi Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 1,189	Well...AFAIK Vermil wanted the Scoring System not existing in 1.8.6...so he tried his chance with latest betas __________________ Proud "Skulltag" and "WolfTC for Doomsday" sprite artist and active Wolf3d modder. Current in-work wolf3d mods: "SonderKommando Revolt" and "Secret of Eridu" http://doomjedi.page.tl/

January 15th, 2009, 11:28 AM	#35
Vermil Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,261	Jedi, While ultimately, src editing was beyond me, I didn't say that I wasn't able to code some things in. It was a major hack job, but I managed to make a basic score system using the armour counter as a base, as an example. Last edited by Vermil; January 15th, 2009 at 12:20 PM.

January 16th, 2009, 12:02 AM	#36
doomjedi Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 1,189	Well...anyway IMO your "waiting for next beta/release" tactic has failed. I agree with DaniJ that you should plan and mod based on features already existing...or pick another port for modding that allows such features. Modding on Doomsday IMO is a brave decision, and though I myself would not pick Doomsday port for modding - I can respect that you might prefer it for your mod, probably for the visual reasons. But you should disconnect your mod progress from Doomsday progress. Anything other than that is a big mistake IMO. __________________ Proud "Skulltag" and "WolfTC for Doomsday" sprite artist and active Wolf3d modder. Current in-work wolf3d mods: "SonderKommando Revolt" and "Secret of Eridu" http://doomjedi.page.tl/

March 13th, 2009, 04:43 AM	#37
skitey Commander Keen Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 16	hmmmpf....seems that this project is dead now, or?

March 15th, 2009, 02:13 AM	#38
Vermil Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,261	Not at tall. It is my intention to convert WolfTC to non-src based. 1.9 Beta5 and Beta6 of Doomsday have added numerous new editing features that allow me to do quite a lot of what I did on the 1.8.6 src via ded in one way or another. A couple of little things I had coded in the 1.8.6 src have to be dropped, but the pay off of not being forced to use an anarchic version of Dday is more than worth it IMO. Of course 1.9 Beta5 and Beta6 are currently in an unsuitable state for modding, given that they are beta's and all, so I can't release anything until the 1.9 series becomes closer to completion.

April 18th, 2009, 05:26 AM	#39
KuriKai Commander Keen Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,274	So how is this mod coming along now?

June 25th, 2009, 03:12 PM	#40
RakniGX Commander Keen Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9	when does this come out

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