Old Timer confused with new problems

foxxa · October 5th, 2004, 12:18 PM

Hi... I'm trying to set a simple lan game between 2 PC, for running old good Doom games for me and my wife!!!!!!! don't ask ages!!!!!

Fact is that we just re-discovered Jdoom and new 3d rendering for 2dm models, etc...

I can run it fine in the new PC, but not in the old Compaq laptop without 3D card, AMD Duron 800Mhz. On XP Home Sp2... same problem with old Millenium DirectX 8 or so.
I tried jdoom -allowsoftware, but it's still to slow to play, or even fooling with the menus. zdoom, legacy and original plays, of course, just fine, lan or single. I decided I can live without 3D on the laptop, but my wife refuses to play old style game...

I need one of three solution:
1- To trim down jdoom real heavy in old computer -preferred- to allow me to play. How? I understand that old jdoom played in 200Mhz or so. Also... Should I download old versions?, Where?, have their compatibility in LAN TCP/IP any chance. Or IPX?
2- Try another port, that works with all those fine modellings and textures, and in the old computer with the old style, ala Safe Mode or Sprite simple mode... Which one does the trick?
3- Connect to some server inbetween that make both software, Jdoom and Legacy, zdoom or whatever, understand each other in some public/private room or so! you get the picture. Doom Connect does Not do the trick, or I don't know how to do it.
We play cooperative, kind of tutoring my wife so she can try Quake...

Please, there is so much information for that little problem I have. Last time I tried this features this was all just beta releases, and we moved to old original Dos scheme on IPX. Got it?

Slide · October 5th, 2004, 03:31 PM

Yeah it's that lack of a graphics card that's the killer, if you've tried both render engines (OpenGL and DirectX) and switched off all the graphics settings (especially dynamic lighting) and are still having problems ZDoom is probably your best bet.

foxxa · October 5th, 2004, 07:17 PM

But I was able to run Quake I and II without slowing down, only with software, nothing beautiful, but gameplay was just as the first time i tried those oldies.
I tried what you said, entering Control Panel and turning off everything i could, but the game is still very slow, even in the menu, I had to wait several second to scroll down and up, not entering any option at all. I think it's something else. I change the ram memory to real large numbers, 64, 80 of my 128Mb ram, and still no difference.
You mean with Zdoom as ZdoomGL in the new PC, Zdoom in the old one. OK. But can ZdoomGL show the monsters in 3D and all?

DaniJ · October 5th, 2004, 07:50 PM

I think your gonna be outta luck foxxa. The way I see it you have two options:

1 - Get a cheap 3D card for the old machine.
2 - Convince the gf that she doesn't need 3D models, lighting etc and both of you play with a software port.

AFAIK you can't play a game between two different ports, even Zdoom and ZdoomGL. There are only three ports that support 3D models, jDoom, Risen3D and Vavoom. Vavoom's models haven't been updated in a LONG time but I have never been able to run Vavoom myself. Risen3D is worth trying as it is based on an older version of Doomsday (not as good looking but runs well on lower spec machines, though I'm not sure if it still has a software renderer).

EDIT: Hang on, is that Compaq new enough to be upgradable?

foxxa · October 6th, 2004, 11:35 AM

that's a shame.
I was about trying portforwarding inside the lan, to communicate both software ports, just in case.
I can hardly imagine that the port developers rewrote the communication stack, as they were focused on integrating it to the port and the graphic thing.
That's probably the reason why all those project couldn't get together, and the least played are going to dissapear and so on. Suppose this: a Doom Connect with that in mind, let all get together, no matter what they are playing, as long as they are using the same maps, files and hacks, if all involved ports supported those files and hacks! Almost all ports have the same features, like jumping, look up and down, etc. So playability like more modern Quake III was a sure thing.
I can think of a portforwarding-capable software to translate IPX (lan issue) or TCP/IP (all the rest) packets from one port to the other and backward. Client centric, to avoid server overhead.
Software should disable hacks not found in all machines involved, kind of muting them.
I downloaded zdeamon to see why almost everyone in the Doom Connect is using it, and I find that port not being that better for oldtimers like me, whose velocity on the keyboard is slowing down

, no competition here! I love to see the mess of doomonites firing rockets in a small room. LOL all the time. My friends and all good oldtimers too. Or killing just monsters. To kill real people in credible fashion... go counterstrike or enter the local gang, police, mafia or army.
The easiest would be if port developers integrate this not-so-hard capability in their client modules. At least people would get together and agree who's gonna be server first, then the rest of issues would be easier to upgrade. Old style at first.
All these ports were developed to get the best of newer machines, but with old games and gamers in mind. And my old compaq laptop (no easy upgrade possible) is 2000, so please!!!. I convinced two old pals to get back in time and play this jdoom new features (new for us) and we had same problem with hardware capabilities, "zdoom or legacy here beacause of space issue", "zdoomgl here, not jdoom, NT in office", "jdoom here well, but not zdeamon, don't like it", so, no playball.
We are old timers with no time for trying all those ports until we find a good one for all of us. And we surely would be the ones to pay for a solution... again?...yep.
Buy new hardware, right! as if it were the logical solution to play 10 years old games, no matter how good it looks.
Play new software, right! we made reunions to play old championships of Nintendo Mario Bros with BBQ and beers and all. We named champion the one who got first out of the first world... (I was!) We planned the 12 pack beer handicap to 1000000 million points in 2600 atari Pacman. Shall be funny.

Chilvence · October 6th, 2004, 01:28 PM

Vavoom is likely your only choice if you want reasonably modern graphics with a lesser machine. It basicially uses a modified version of the Quake software engine, which sacrifices some image quality and texture precision to get a fast running picture. The reason you're having no luck with jDoom's 'software' mode is that its basically trying to force your poor compaq's processor to do everything a full blown 3d card would do, which is wholly impractical even on a top of the line P4 or Athlon 64.

Alternatively, wait for Zdaemon 2.0 (or you could email them and try and blag a beta copy). Zd 2.0 wont support models until ZdoomGl does, but it will be cabable of running with or without the textures, and linking people with the software and OGL versions together. Its also the most populated online port, if your into being chiseled into the floor by smack talking strangers

Good luck with the Pacman though, sounds awesome

foxxa · October 6th, 2004, 06:57 PM

gonna try them all... in the ancient 2000 laptop.
I'm probably a dinossaur.
My wife just ran out of the room when she saw all that blood at the walls in jdoom with the LONG blood definitions... LOL REALLY R-E-A-L-L-Y FUNNY. She kills one monster in Plutonia, died 5 times, saved game, quit until next day... so, by Zdeamon 4 she will be in level 5 or 6.

This or I buy me another new pc, or I program a packet translation deamon for us in linux. Is there anything I can start with? I just captured some packets to analyze, but it would be faster to understand how this packets are built by clients if someone did all that work before. I know all those port are freeware, but are they open source?
I remember building my own serial nullmodem cable, crossing the serial links and configuring the DM program connection bauds into a double signal repeater.
Wait! I have to work...

jls23 · October 6th, 2004, 06:59 PM

For an old guy, you sure know a lot about comps. I wonder....

OMG. You're lying. I just know it. "Old guy confused with new problems", and you know how to build a serial modem and program shit? You're LYING. Unless you can explain yourself, I justify this as a lie. And no old guy says LOL. None that I'VE heard of, anyways. And you say you have to work, and you're STILL ONLINE.

foxxa · October 7th, 2004, 07:36 AM

That's ridiculous...
I'm 31 years old, cumputer technician, that's the secret. I hardly find hours to play any shooter and love to try _restored_ old stuff too. I can buy me doom3 but I'm not sure that we will like it.
Network and hardware, not graphic software poweruser and in some things a fine expert, but games are not my strong, since I work with NT and linux most of the time. I had some ideas of how things really work. And if I'm going to work I can say, "I have to work" until going offline. Besides I'm my own boss right now.
Just played doom 1 _several_ years ago for the first time in a 386 16Mhz... under DOS and all.
"LOL" IMHO is nothing DYT
That's and OLD-TIMER and not and OLD-MAN
No fighting here, just that the word "lier" is too cheaply given.
By the way, english is not my first language and maybe you got wrong because some of my very often grammar mistakes. Sorry for that.

The Undertaker · October 7th, 2004, 07:49 AM

Go get a $20 GF2MX. It comes in both PCI and AGP flavors. Or if you willing to spend a little more a GF4MX.

foxxa · October 7th, 2004, 08:35 AM

I know I can, I just wondered if there was a way to play this 11 years old thing.
This is my last post here in this thread... sorry for the troubles at reading loooong posting.
I'm not consufed anymore. Luck!

October 5th, 2004, 12:18 PM	#1
foxxa Commander Keen Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6	Old Timer confused with new problems Hi... I'm trying to set a simple lan game between 2 PC, for running old good Doom games for me and my wife!!!!!!! don't ask ages!!!!! Fact is that we just re-discovered Jdoom and new 3d rendering for 2dm models, etc... I can run it fine in the new PC, but not in the old Compaq laptop without 3D card, AMD Duron 800Mhz. On XP Home Sp2... same problem with old Millenium DirectX 8 or so. I tried jdoom -allowsoftware, but it's still to slow to play, or even fooling with the menus. zdoom, legacy and original plays, of course, just fine, lan or single. I decided I can live without 3D on the laptop, but my wife refuses to play old style game... I need one of three solution: 1- To trim down jdoom real heavy in old computer -preferred- to allow me to play. How? I understand that old jdoom played in 200Mhz or so. Also... Should I download old versions?, Where?, have their compatibility in LAN TCP/IP any chance. Or IPX? 2- Try another port, that works with all those fine modellings and textures, and in the old computer with the old style, ala Safe Mode or Sprite simple mode... Which one does the trick? 3- Connect to some server inbetween that make both software, Jdoom and Legacy, zdoom or whatever, understand each other in some public/private room or so! you get the picture. Doom Connect does Not do the trick, or I don't know how to do it. We play cooperative, kind of tutoring my wife so she can try Quake... Please, there is so much information for that little problem I have. Last time I tried this features this was all just beta releases, and we moved to old original Dos scheme on IPX. Got it?

October 5th, 2004, 07:50 PM	#4
DaniJ Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: UK Posts: 4,916	I think your gonna be outta luck foxxa. The way I see it you have two options: 1 - Get a cheap 3D card for the old machine. 2 - Convince the gf that she doesn't need 3D models, lighting etc and both of you play with a software port. AFAIK you can't play a game between two different ports, even Zdoom and ZdoomGL. There are only three ports that support 3D models, jDoom, Risen3D and Vavoom. Vavoom's models haven't been updated in a LONG time but I have never been able to run Vavoom myself. Risen3D is worth trying as it is based on an older version of Doomsday (not as good looking but runs well on lower spec machines, though I'm not sure if it still has a software renderer). EDIT: Hang on, is that Compaq new enough to be upgradable? Last edited by DaniJ; October 5th, 2004 at 07:56 PM.

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October 5th, 2004, 03:31 PM	#2
Slide Commander Keen Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: London, England Posts: 528	Yeah it's that lack of a graphics card that's the killer, if you've tried both render engines (OpenGL and DirectX) and switched off all the graphics settings (especially dynamic lighting) and are still having problems ZDoom is probably your best bet.

October 5th, 2004, 07:17 PM	#3
foxxa Commander Keen Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6	But I was able to run Quake I and II without slowing down, only with software, nothing beautiful, but gameplay was just as the first time i tried those oldies. I tried what you said, entering Control Panel and turning off everything i could, but the game is still very slow, even in the menu, I had to wait several second to scroll down and up, not entering any option at all. I think it's something else. I change the ram memory to real large numbers, 64, 80 of my 128Mb ram, and still no difference. You mean with Zdoom as ZdoomGL in the new PC, Zdoom in the old one. OK. But can ZdoomGL show the monsters in 3D and all?

October 6th, 2004, 11:35 AM	#5
foxxa Commander Keen Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6	that's a shame. I was about trying portforwarding inside the lan, to communicate both software ports, just in case. I can hardly imagine that the port developers rewrote the communication stack, as they were focused on integrating it to the port and the graphic thing. That's probably the reason why all those project couldn't get together, and the least played are going to dissapear and so on. Suppose this: a Doom Connect with that in mind, let all get together, no matter what they are playing, as long as they are using the same maps, files and hacks, if all involved ports supported those files and hacks! Almost all ports have the same features, like jumping, look up and down, etc. So playability like more modern Quake III was a sure thing. I can think of a portforwarding-capable software to translate IPX (lan issue) or TCP/IP (all the rest) packets from one port to the other and backward. Client centric, to avoid server overhead. Software should disable hacks not found in all machines involved, kind of muting them. I downloaded zdeamon to see why almost everyone in the Doom Connect is using it, and I find that port not being that better for oldtimers like me, whose velocity on the keyboard is slowing down , no competition here! I love to see the mess of doomonites firing rockets in a small room. LOL all the time. My friends and all good oldtimers too. Or killing just monsters. To kill real people in credible fashion... go counterstrike or enter the local gang, police, mafia or army. The easiest would be if port developers integrate this not-so-hard capability in their client modules. At least people would get together and agree who's gonna be server first, then the rest of issues would be easier to upgrade. Old style at first. All these ports were developed to get the best of newer machines, but with old games and gamers in mind. And my old compaq laptop (no easy upgrade possible) is 2000, so please!!!. I convinced two old pals to get back in time and play this jdoom new features (new for us) and we had same problem with hardware capabilities, "zdoom or legacy here beacause of space issue", "zdoomgl here, not jdoom, NT in office", "jdoom here well, but not zdeamon, don't like it", so, no playball. We are old timers with no time for trying all those ports until we find a good one for all of us. And we surely would be the ones to pay for a solution... again?...yep. Buy new hardware, right! as if it were the logical solution to play 10 years old games, no matter how good it looks. Play new software, right! we made reunions to play old championships of Nintendo Mario Bros with BBQ and beers and all. We named champion the one who got first out of the first world... (I was!) We planned the 12 pack beer handicap to 1000000 million points in 2600 atari Pacman. Shall be funny.

October 6th, 2004, 01:28 PM	#6
Chilvence Commander Keen Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I ham in the land of Oz - oooooo.... Posts: 1,524	Vavoom is likely your only choice if you want reasonably modern graphics with a lesser machine. It basicially uses a modified version of the Quake software engine, which sacrifices some image quality and texture precision to get a fast running picture. The reason you're having no luck with jDoom's 'software' mode is that its basically trying to force your poor compaq's processor to do everything a full blown 3d card would do, which is wholly impractical even on a top of the line P4 or Athlon 64. Alternatively, wait for Zdaemon 2.0 (or you could email them and try and blag a beta copy). Zd 2.0 wont support models until ZdoomGl does, but it will be cabable of running with or without the textures, and linking people with the software and OGL versions together. Its also the most populated online port, if your into being chiseled into the floor by smack talking strangers Good luck with the Pacman though, sounds awesome

October 6th, 2004, 06:57 PM	#7
foxxa Commander Keen Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6	gonna try them all... in the ancient 2000 laptop. I'm probably a dinossaur. My wife just ran out of the room when she saw all that blood at the walls in jdoom with the LONG blood definitions... LOL REALLY R-E-A-L-L-Y FUNNY. She kills one monster in Plutonia, died 5 times, saved game, quit until next day... so, by Zdeamon 4 she will be in level 5 or 6. This or I buy me another new pc, or I program a packet translation deamon for us in linux. Is there anything I can start with? I just captured some packets to analyze, but it would be faster to understand how this packets are built by clients if someone did all that work before. I know all those port are freeware, but are they open source? I remember building my own serial nullmodem cable, crossing the serial links and configuring the DM program connection bauds into a double signal repeater. Wait! I have to work...

October 6th, 2004, 06:59 PM	#8
jls23 Commander Keen Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 1,087	For an old guy, you sure know a lot about comps. I wonder.... OMG. You're lying. I just know it. "Old guy confused with new problems", and you know how to build a serial modem and program shit? You're LYING. Unless you can explain yourself, I justify this as a lie. And no old guy says LOL. None that I'VE heard of, anyways. And you say you have to work, and you're STILL ONLINE.

October 7th, 2004, 07:36 AM	#9
foxxa Commander Keen Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6	That's ridiculous... I'm 31 years old, cumputer technician, that's the secret. I hardly find hours to play any shooter and love to try _restored_ old stuff too. I can buy me doom3 but I'm not sure that we will like it. Network and hardware, not graphic software poweruser and in some things a fine expert, but games are not my strong, since I work with NT and linux most of the time. I had some ideas of how things really work. And if I'm going to work I can say, "I have to work" until going offline. Besides I'm my own boss right now. Just played doom 1 _several_ years ago for the first time in a 386 16Mhz... under DOS and all. "LOL" IMHO is nothing DYT That's and OLD-TIMER and not and OLD-MAN No fighting here, just that the word "lier" is too cheaply given. By the way, english is not my first language and maybe you got wrong because some of my very often grammar mistakes. Sorry for that.

October 7th, 2004, 07:49 AM	#10
The Undertaker Commander Keen Join Date: May 2001 Location: To your left Posts: 1,999	Go get a $20 GF2MX. It comes in both PCI and AGP flavors. Or if you willing to spend a little more a GF4MX.

October 7th, 2004, 08:35 AM	#11
foxxa Commander Keen Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6	I know I can, I just wondered if there was a way to play this 11 years old thing. This is my last post here in this thread... sorry for the troubles at reading loooong posting. I'm not consufed anymore. Luck!

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