10 year anniversary of the Columbine shooting

[Zack]

Exactly ten years ago today on April 20, 1999, tragedy struck Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, creating a wave of fear that cascaded throughout the nation and turned already crappy high schools into jail houses for <s>potential psychos</s>students everywhere. It also sucked for the Doom and Quake communities which got anally raped with negative media attention. It is not as historically significant as 9/11 but for me personally the event was just as emotionally scarring. Maybe more.

Anyway I just thought I'd point that out! A lot of you may not find it relevant but I feel like the event was associated with this community very strongly. Or at least with the parts of the Doom community that were around in 1999, seeing as NewDoom wasn't. It hit everyone pretty hard.

[Giftmacher]

That was a bad day. The aftermath was even worse, though. Makes me sick.

[Aliotroph?]

And then they came up with procedures to lock down schools in case of things like that. I suppose those might work against marauding divorcees trying to abduct their kids but they're useless against school shootings. Whenever we had drills for that crap I'd sit there and point out all the most effective ways around it. It's fun scaring people. :D

I still find it funny how my mom feels the need to point out to her friends that my bro and his friends are good kids whenever they have a LAN party. My mom has a load of pretty stupid friends.

I'm stil at a loss as to why this one gets so much attention though. Massacres like this have been happening for a long time. These guys weren't even the most effective at it. It's weird.

That said, the victims didn't deserve that. Hopefully their families have been doing ok (well, except the ones blaming games; they can die poor and lonely for all I care).

[CrazedImp]

Stuff like this reminds me of how many security holes there are with everything. And how they don't act on it until the worst case scenario happens.

[Raptor Jesus]

There was a gun threat at our school once and we went into a lockdown. EVERYONE took it as a joke because we are so used to doing the things. Drilling constantly takes the seriousness out of an event. Not to mention hiding in our rooms with the lights off. The terrorists are just going to walk in and be like "Ah, damn it! Must of been a snow day!"

[Mystic]

It was one of many terrible events that should never have happened but looks like being repeated until common sense prevails over macho bullcrap.

I would say something about guns and their availability but dont want to get involved in any more silly flames about that sort of thing.

I will just say I am one person who should never be trusted with a loaded gun especially if Im in a bad mood and it would be very silly to have a constitution that allows me to have them.

[Zack]

I would say something about guns and their availability but dont want to get involved in any more silly flames about that sort of thing.

Incidentally I fired a gun (two actually) for the first time yesterday. Some of my friends who happen to be gun enthusiasts took me out to a shooting range. It's an interesting experience. Spoiler: It's loud.

[Aliotroph?]

When we were kids my mom hated guns. She wouldn't let us have anything more interesting than $2 squirt guns. One day she wandered off with her friends and took a course on shooting muskets. Then she had her boyfriend teach us guns. hehehe I got a whole family of gun enthusiasts now. I have yet to fire a shotgun. Must give that a try sometime.

Seems many places in the states are making it easier to carry guns (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1891416,00.html). Sometimes I wish we could do that here. The gang types are carrying them anyway. Let me have one too!

And all the fools discussed in this one (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/20/columbine.irpt/index.html) are crazy. I seek out the "goth" girls. hehe I always meet really sweet ones. Maybe I'm just weird and attract weird people. :D

[<<-Jimmy->>]

I have been around guns the most of my life. Jack Thompson said they utilized doom to train on, and "practice" the shooting. Now anyone who has any experience with firearms knows the difference from firing a 12 gauge in real life, and in a video game are vast. Especially the ones that they had used were sawn-off. I own my own guns, a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun, and a 30-30. rifle, and a 22. rifle. As well as assorted air guns. I don't own any handguns. I have no real reason too, The guns I do own are utilized for hunting. I do enjoy shooting, and Alio you should definitely try shooting a shotgun if you have the chance. It's great fun. ^^,

[Giftmacher]

I'll stick with my paintball gun. :p It's not loud and it won't kill you.

[+Acyclitor+]

Columbine. mentally disturbed kids, very unfortunate event.
the media showed itself to be the real monsters by focusing on a bunch of dumb crap instead of the simple truth that those boys needed psychological help, that the schools and their parents failed to get them help at every level.

I would say something about guns and their availability but dont want to get involved in any more silly flames about that sort of thing.you know every time a shooting happens over here a lot of the people who where there end up saying "gee, I wish I had had a gun with me to take out that psycho before he killed so many people." guns aren't the problem, psycho ass motherfuckers are the problem. criminals and the criminally insane will always find a way to get a weapon - they don't care if its illegal or not. just look at the UK, which has banned almost all individual ownership of firearms. the crime rate there has skyrocketed because criminals still have the weapons and are now not afraid of what their victims might be packing.

I will just say I am one person who should never be trusted with a loaded gun especially if Im in a bad mood and it would be very silly to have a constitution that allows me to have them.wow, your crazy. are you saying if you had the right to a gun you absolutely would get one and absolutely would use it maliciously? shit, stay over there in nanny-state UK plz.

Seems many places in the states are making it easier to carry guns. Sometimes I wish we could do that here. The gang types are carrying them anyway. Let me have one too!Canadian gun laws are kind of dumb, from what I understand. like all AK type rifles are banned. its not like an AK is more dangerous than any other gun - in fact most hunting rifles (which you can also find in semi-auto) are far, far more powerful. the really dumb thing about it is that this ban also affects some shotguns, such as Saigas - as they're an AK variant just chambered in 12 gauge instead.

its just like internet law, really: politicians who have no idea how shit really works making up laws.

[Aliotroph?]

Oh, I have the chance to shoot a shotgun; I just don't like hanging out with my family enough to be bothered about it most times. Assault rifles are fun too. :D

AK-type rifles are certainly not banned, as I know several people here who own them. Automatic weapons are banned, as they are in many places in the states. That said, the intarwebs will tell you all about how the difference tends to be one pin... :p No, handguns are much more tightly controlled than semi-auto assault rifles. Oh, the irony!

While you certainly can't learn to use guns from a game you can learn to be very good at following targets. My brother plays FPS games all the time and his ability to hit stuff with a real gun is quite impressive. First time he shot a handgun the guy at the range asked if he played games because he was good. Doesn't work on blind bastards like me though. I can hit big targets, but I can't see where the shots hit so I can't adjust for finer things.

I stick by my posts in some earlier threads saying some simple gun training should be offered to everybody. Most people will never need or want to use a gun but it would be nice to take away the strange, irrational fear a lot of people have of being anywhere near the things. Yeah, they can be crazy dangerous, but they're just a technology like anything else and they're less dangerous in a room full of people who know what's going on and don't panic.

This guy refutes (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1891815,00.html) your assertion about the parents being horrible failures. He has good points there. I think most of the epic fail happened afterwards when people went really stupid. All societies seem incapable of stopping the odd psycho from killing a bunch of people.

[+Acyclitor+]

AK-type rifles are certainly not banned, as I know several people here who own them.ah, seems my info was bad then. but hey, I don't live in Canada so I don't have much motivation to double check that stuff.

[Sigma]

I have to admit, I am rather amused by how much people romanticize with guns and am greatly amused by arguments that support them. The dichotomy of the entire situation and opinions surrounding such is a perfect example of the "you versus me," "us versus them" bullshit that manifested the invention of such a device in the first place.

Frankly, people's idiocy is winning me over, as I often wish these people would all huddle together while a nice atom bomb dropped on their heads, or they'd actually use the gun for it's intended purpose. And when I state "use the gun for it's intended purpose" I of course mean "shoot themselves in the head."

I always hear about couples seeing other people's children and wishing for children of their own. Everytime I see other people's children, watch the news, pretty much read damn near anything / see idiotic banter scribbled everywhere on forums, I generally think the exact opposite. I don't think I have the strength nor would I find it fair to raise a child in world full of so many fucking morons.

Meaning... Eric Harris and Dylon Klebold were morons, I cannot dispute that, but Columbine wasn't necessarily what determined if they deserved such a label, it was what they believed in-- beliefs that ninety-percent of the rest of the world seemingly share to various degrees, including people that post on this forum.

People will always argue, well, I support guns for miscellaneous dumb-ass reason whatever, but I'd never actually use it! Then what is the point? Harris and Klebold may have been morons, but at least they actually did something with their lives-- I am not condoning it because it was an action founded on their messed-up and ridiculous belief-system, but it was an action nonetheless.

Point is, get off your ass (honestly, it isn't like you're doing anything worth spit anyway), take your gun and go shoot someone-- or get yourself shot, then attempt to justify your gun stance or write about "how cool they are."

I understand this post seems malicious or vindicative, but seriously! There is only so much idiocy I can take before my homicidal rage meter hits the red-line! Of course, that is the irony of the whole thing.

[rustyslacker]

Will you hold the same patronizing and idealistic viewpoint if someone mugs you at gunpoint tomorrow? How about if someone breaks into your house, holds up your workplace, or threatens your family?

Guns were invented to kill people. I do not argue this. Why should only bad people get to have them?

I find it strange that you are such an incredibly intelligent person but can cling to this opinion. Actually, it's hard to tell what your opinion is from that post. D:

[+Acyclitor+]

Will you hold the same patronizing and idealistic viewpoint if someone mugs you at gunpoint tomorrow? How about if someone breaks into your house, holds up your workplace, or threatens your family?quoted for truth.

Sigma, you show yourself to be hypocritical. how you can continue to endorse an opinion that is demonstrably not supported by the facts is beyond me.

[Sigma]

Define bad people, I suppose. I won't argue my post may come off as idealistic, but murder is murder. While a man may hold me up at gun-point in an attempt to rob me for his own needs (whether those are superfluous needs or not), the fact that I may have a gun and end his life in self-defense is ultimately selfish as well. Not to mention, I'm probably more likely to be shot if he realizes I have a gun.

It does not matter whether I get shot so he can steal my wallet or I shoot him so I can keep it, the burden is the intent regardless of which way.

Those "facts" are fucked, frankly. Such things can be illustrated to such extremes one way or the other depending on whether people are pro-guns or anti-guns-- and the use of a firearm in self-defense argument is so circumstantial you essentially have to look at it on a case by case basis. The only legitimate statistics are the gun-orientated mortality rates, of which, accidental death and suicide out-weigh homicide (2 to 1).

Not only that, but your "facts" are wrong. These statistics were done after England's disarmament and while many sources indicate gun-crime has risen in England by quite a bit, it is not even close to that of the United States.

Britian's Gun Crime Rises to Record Level (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gun-crime-rises-to-record-level-with-200-incidents-every-week-583662.html)

England's record for gun-related death's in 2007 (80) is a bit more than Milwaukee's (yes, I am merely referencing ONE CITY in the United States) near-record low (65) of the same year. Milwaukee's record is 350 gun-related homicides in one-year.

Milwaukee's Homicide Rate Lowest in Two Decades (http://media.www.marquettetribune.org/media/storage/paper1130/news/2008/09/18/News/Milwaukees.Homicide.Rate.Lowest.In.Two.Decades-3436375.shtml)

Gun Facts (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm)

USA (Per 100,000) -- Homicide (3,980); Suicide (5,920); Accidental (360)
England (Per 100,000) -- Homicide (150); Suicide (200); Accidental (30)

But Sigma! The USA has more people! Fine. Take the percentage of gun related deaths and compare them to the total population.

USA (total estimated population as of 2009) -- 306,254,000
England (total estimated population as of 2007) -- 51,092,000

USA homicide rate (per 100,000) is 0.039%.
England homicide rate (per 100,000) is 0.0015%

With due consideration to the population difference, it still doesn't matter. England would need a population 26 times larger than that of the United States' for the homicide rate statistic to be a wash. In conclusion, I have a 159.18% greater chance to be killed via gun homicide, simply because I live in the United States instead of England, regardless obviously if I have a gun or not.

This is all ignoring the point of my post, of which, you both missed anyway.

[rustyslacker]

Alright, so I cower before the weight of your intellect--but I am an animal, as are you, and we have yet to outgrow our instincts. And I have a deep and primal desire to protect my existence and my health, even if the cost is another life.

Call me selfish. The word "selfish" is not an insult nor a character flaw.

[Mystic]

I can look after myself, if someone stuck a gun in my face I would merely batter his head in then if really angry beat him with his gun or even use it on him. The reason I dont trust myself with a gun is that I know some things make me really angry and if I had access to a gun it would be so easy just to point it and get rid of that anger, wether that be killing a corrupt politician, a racist thug, someone being cruel to animals or many other possible angry making situations.
I dont know the facts about columbine but I do remember the guys being called unsociable losers which in middle class america could mean they were actually decent guys driven crazy by the persecution of the conformist 'singing to the flag' majority. I dunno, I do reckon that if someone is crazy enough to do someting like they did then its very likely that something made them crazy and it wasnt playing doom.
Maybe living in america makes you crazy and thats why everyone there seems to be on medication.

[Aliotroph?]

I never figured out why there are so many murders in America. If the murders in our city break 30 per year that's a lot. Americans seem to have ramped up their tolerance for violence to compensate for their extreme intolerance for sex. Solution to gun crime: more boobs and dicks on TV! ;)

The one really solid argument for stopping people from carrying guns around is on average they're not smart enough to keep curious kids from killing themselves or each other. I'm always amazed at how many people leave guns unlocked and then wonder how their kids found the things and died. Still shouldn't negate my right to terminate burglarlies with extreme prejudice using any means at my disposal, up to and including booby traps.

[+Acyclitor+]

most murders in America can be linked in some way to illegal drugs, either directly or indirectly.

[Aliotroph?]

Same with the ones here. I suggest we just start selling the drugs at Safeway for a fraction of the price. Problem solved.

[Giftmacher]

Solution to gun crime: more boobs and dicks on TV! ;)
This man speaks the truth!

[Aliotroph?]

Heh, there's an ad for a Front Sight firearms training institute at the top of the page now. :D

[REoL]

one thought: If a achool is in lockdown, because someone might have a gun, what's the point of the lockdown? You got the gunmen inside, and the classrooms full of victims. Isn't that pointless? Doesn't this provide sitting ducks for the gunmen?

The only way I know this idea works, is if the gunmen hasn't arrived, or gone inside yet, otherwise, lockdowns make things worse.

Ahh...the good ol' days, when kids would bring guns to school simply to show them off.... (Yes, that did happen during my H.S. days.)

[Mystic]

thats part of the problem, familiarity breeds contempt. Add social pressures, poverty, lack of hope for the future etc to the mix and its no surprise that sometimes folk get pushed over the edge and do crazy stuff.

[Raptor Jesus]

Heh, there's an ad for a Front Sight firearms training institute at the top of the page now. :D

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[Darkwave0000]

Hmmm. This event is having much tragedy around it. Those two must be having the miserable life to be driven to that extreme. Very sad. In having honesty, people are being murdered all the time. This was sad event, but I am thinking the main thing that is making it seem so much worse is the superfluous negative media attention that glorified the event, and which probably had impact on Doom community. Because it was having so much attention, people sought cause, and publicized cause is never miserable life, but something that makes better story like "They played video games to pollute their minds and train for it and construct mapping to simulate their plans." I am believing media could have been handling situation more responsibly.

I am not understanding the purpose of lockdown procedure. "There be a gun-totting madman in the school, so everybody turning off the lights so you can't be seeing what your tripping over and huddle in a corner so gunner is knowing all victims location and not having to hit moving target! *cachmf* " Wouldn't gunner just shoot lock out and have room full of hostages to threaten law enforcement with? Certainly they can at least have code "Lockdown Sequence C!" that means gunman is at main entrance, so escape by different exit, or something. I don't think disaster drills are good idea either because real event is regarded as drill and not taken seriously (I knew people who just ignored alarms because they had paper to finish and it was obviosly not really disaster, and thus a wasting of the time.) A better approach may be to place escape route poster in rooms and recommend they follow route in spare time to be familiar with it. Anyway, I think it's like DRM and point is not to be effective, but just to make institution look good to public.

[Raptor Jesus]

Anyway, I think it's like DRM and point is not to be effective, but just to make institution look good to public.

Well, said.

...well, nicely put but could be said better :P.

Also, what is your native language? I've been wondering that.

[Aliotroph?]

We used to have assemblies in the gym once a month where they locked everybody in. Whenever there was a lockdown drill I enjoyed pointing out how easy it would be to smuggle a LOT of explosive into a gym packed with 2000 people and make Columbine look like a regular accident. :D

[jetflock]

my apartment is filled with spring loaded darts.

[Darkwave0000]

I am wondering the arguments leading to concluding that lockdowns are helpful. If I were a bad person, I would be wanting my targets to sit patiently and wait for me to find them. Knowing the way world works, probably nothing will be changing until scenario Aliotroph? mentions happens. Anyways, school shootings seem very uncommon, so it is probably nothing to be worrying over too much. That's good. *cachlo*
Also, what is your native language? I've been wondering that.
Hablo un poco Español y un poco Ingles, pero necesito practicar mi Ingles más, hmmm? ;)
I should probably be studying more verb conjugations and stuff. Feel free to PMing me grammer corrections if you are wanting to. It will be much appreciated. :D

[Raptor Jesus]

So spanish?

If I get the time, I'll be sure to help you out when possible :D

[Aliotroph?]

Verb conjugations in English don't make any sense to speakers of English or any other language. Too many of them are special cases and English speakers can't even use them right. You're doing fine. :)

[Phoebus]

Verb conjugations in English don't make any sense to speakers of English or any other language. Too many of them are special cases and English speakers can't even use them right.Au contraire, mon ami!
With today's pathetic and irrevocably corrupt education bureaucracy (at least here in the US, but especially in California), you may have a point, but otherwise, speak for yourself. ;)

English definitely has grammatical rules, and they do make sense. It's a perfectly expressive language, and why it's the de facto language of the world. Blaming the language and not the person is rubbish and part of the problem. Many of us are just too lazy! Like any other language (or computer language, or music for that matter), you just have to be taught / learn it CORRECTLY from the beginning.

[Giftmacher]

I don't know, I'm pretty sure it's got plenty of problems.

[Aliotroph?]

EDIT: Giftmacher snuck in there before me.

You're right that rules are there. It's just far, far too many English words don't even come close to them. What kind of language has "went" as a past tense form of "go?" What kind of language simply forgets to have a gender-neutral pronoun to keep over-emotional feminist cunts from whining instead of being useful? We can use "they" sometimes, but then some clueless language-police teacher claims it's "wrong." Wrong, my ass! If 90% of people are doing something with a language it ceased to be wrong long ago! And then there are words that don't sound anything like their spelling. Colonel? Huh? How the hell is anybody supposed to figure out they have to pronounce it like "kernel?"

English is messed. It gets a lot of its ability to express things from how easily it accepts new words and expressions. The French should learn that trick. Instead they have language police. Any culture doing that deserves death. I don't care if English eventually evolves into a cross between Spanish, Cantonese and 1337 as long as people can still communicate.

We end up with lots of non-native speakers apologizing for a lack of knowledge of English. It's just not their fault. The things they don't remember are often the broken, weird things. Those things are often awesome, but they don't make any sense and I'm not going to blame anybody for not knowing them.

I agree with you about how most education systems in North America manage to completely fail to teach English. It's a bit scary how half the people who come here from Europe have better English than most people living here. I blame schools wasting time on crap like religion, the importance of self esteem, wars on drugs, and social dance. Oh, and there's also that bit about the faculty of education always being the one with inflated marks that encourage people to sign up because they suck at everything else. I had plenty of awesome teachers, but I've also had enough mindless ones to make me wonder how they graduated.

What were we ranting about? Guns? Yeah, they're sometimes fun and sometimes not. Oh, and Eric Harris' wads suck. :D

[Mystic]

Yup, English is an evil language to learn, I should know, my partner has constant problems with it because in Latvian every letter is pronounced the same way in every word but in English we often use the same letter many different ways and then use another letter for the same sound all over the place, add the 'th' 'wh' and the 'ch' words just for confusions sake. Then we have all those damn 'silent' letters in the middle or at the end of words and all those words that sound exactly the same but mean completely different things or the same word meaning different things depending on the way its used. Most of those things got me into big arguments with my teachers, they would end up just saying 'well it may be stupid but its the rules' and I would demand to know who made the stupid rules and how they got the job. Yup it went in ever decreasing circles.

[Phoebus]

And then there are words that don't sound anything like their spelling. Colonel? Huh? How the hell is anybody supposed to figure out they have to pronounce it like "kernel?"Well, you learn it. You learn it and then you remember it, and it becomes second nature, that's all.

It seems most of your issues with English as stated have more to do with spelling and pronunciation, not grammar. With Google and auto- spell check, there's no excuse for anyone on the Internet anymore. Words are weird. *weird*

I think a lot of non-English speakers have problems with subject-verb tense agreement and pronouns. Because they're coming from even weirder, stodgy, more complicated languages than our own :D

I do love the French language; I think it's really beautiful and an integral part of their culture (which goes without saying; language IS an integral part of any culture). And I can understand their reasons for wanting to keep it from being downgraded by l33t pop culture.

And I agree, in my experience, the quality of the teacher in any given subject makes all the difference (for the better or much worse!), not only in a young student's ability to learn, but especially when you're in college.

[Mystic]

French does sound amazing but its bloody awkward to learn, all that tongue curling and gargling and the spelling is even worse than the English. I am currently trying (ok, supposed to be trying) to learn French as we are hoping to emigrate there sometime in the future if we ever have enough money to buy some property and turn it into a bed&breakfast hotel.

[Darkwave0000]

I am thinking that the main thing to learning a language is being somewhere where it is used often. That way, you are knowing to say (for example) you "went" someplace because everyone else is saying "went" in place of "goed." I am thinking languages are designed for expressiveness, and not necessarily to be easily learned, so they just take practicing and familiarity to master.

Off of the topic (well, on the main one anyway), I am having curiosity about Mr. Harris's mapping. I am hearing it talked about with frequency, but have only seen UAClabs because it is on the "Infamous WADs" website. Hearing about the mapping all the time does make wanting to know what it is though. However, I am remembering from another thread that this mapping only exists in government archives, though. Very mysterious .WADs, hmmm? *cachlo*

[Aliotroph?]

There are a few of his wads floating around. You can google for them. There is a page containing all the files that could be taken from what was left of his AOL site before the FBI killed it. His maps aren't interesting except for the fact that he made them -- and readmes that come with them are a bit crazy.

Sometimes I wonder if there are any popular wads that were made by psychotic killers. Nobody ever brings that idea up. They probably don't want to think about it, but somehow we do get quite a few mentally unhinged people in this community.

As for French, I find its spellings far, far easier than English. I can spell most things in English perfectly but part of that is years of reading a book a day. The French standardized large parts of their language, making their spelling and grammar very consistent. That might be the death of it too because they cling so hard to having their unique language and forcing residents to use it rather than adopting new things.

The Quebecois are always pissed off at how any French localization for most products is done in the French spoken in France, which they have trouble with. The people of France will also treat you quite badly if they find you speaking the French of Quebec, since they think it's an abomination. This is like people from rural Tennessee complaining about how they don't speak "American" on Monty Python. :D

[deathbecomesme]

Well i was looking through acolumbinesite which has alot of info about the massacre and has his website sorta..and i was looking and found that one of his wads that was never downloadable before was now.
just take a look through the page and scroll down till ya see the outdoors wad.

here (http://acolumbinesite.com/eric/ftpdirect.html) :D

[Mystic]

I would rather hunt down wads by someone known for being a good mapper as opposed to someone known as a mass killer but thats just me.

[Heidi]

One of the dumbest things I recall from the aftermath of the Columbine shootings was the neverending bitching held by traumatized parents. They went from "we want more security in our schools" to "our kids are being treated like convicts" in less than a month or so.

May the assassins burn in hell and long live the NRA.

[Aliotroph?]

Parents excel at stupid. This is why they shouldn't be permitted to make any decisions regarding education. Mothers are so good at damaging society they should have their voting rights revoked until their kids grow up.

[FATAL]

While I too am for strict gun control, firearms only amplify the problem that already exists, and distracts from the main issue that is poverty. A country such as USA has well enough resources to get homes, food and health care for all its citizens, but instead of commonwealth there is the American Dream. This has resulted in some people becoming astoundingly rich while others live among rats and oily water.

And the situation doesn't even have to get that shoddy for someone to figure out that he might just as well have a shot at the world of crime in order to improve his quality of living. The poorer conditions a person has in the first place, the more willing he is to take the risk of getting caught. At this point, it also hardly matters whether people have guns or not (in which case it is obviously more beneficial to society that they don't have them), it's just another risk a poor person has to take to live in the absence of a proper welfare system. It's always the minority consisting of poor people that commit the majority of crimes.

It is impossible to solve crime problem by killing thugs when the faulty system itself is breeding grounds for it. If everyone had a proper standard of living, there would be few people willing to gamble with their freedom in order to gain a little extra something something.

At the moment it doesn't matter whether everyone has guns or no one has guns in the USA as far as crime is concerned. Of course your capitalist overlords seem to let you believe that this all could be solved with harsh penalties and such, when in fact they're only protecting the system that made (and keeps) them rich at the expense of others. Ultimately it will be at the expense of themselves, too, but since that isn't in the immediate near future, it is only human of them to disregard such thoughts.

It's ultimately up to you Americans to stop believing what the bourgeoisie tells you and start thinking for yourself if you wish any progress.

[Heidi]

This was discussed sometime ago if I recall correctly, but I have to repeat myself here after that pointless load of worthless socialist bullshit; excepting for those who are legally, clinically insane, everyone has enough common sense to tell right from wrong, and the reason people repeatedly commit crimes is the loopholes in the penal system that allow them to get away with pretty much anything most of the time. In other words, they like it easy and don't fear punishment. Nothing that can't be solved with a proper, extensive implementation of the death penalty. Government should make it so that robbing, raping and murdering will automatically result in the perpetrator dying a horrible death as soon as he/she is found guilty.

[REoL]

{SNIP} I should probably be studying more verb conjugations and stuff. Feel free to PMing me grammer corrections if you are wanting to. It will be much appreciated. :D
You're doing a lot better than the crap-fest that comes out of our own schools here in the States, so you're doing just fine.
I got D's in English, and what I see from young people today, makes me look like I have a Doctorate in English. :(

[FATAL]

Government should make it so that robbing, raping and murdering will automatically result in the perpetrator dying a horrible death as soon as he/she is found guilty.
What about those who yell at other people and make them feel sad?

You made me feel so down. *caccry*

[Aliotroph?]

Deterrents don't work against crimes of passion, and 99% of murders are just that. Nope death penalty causes nothing. Better to treat murderers and make them do some work for a while to put money back into the system. America convicts far, far too many innocent people to even consider it for anything else. Besides, robbery isn't much of a crime if you manage it against a big company or a government. It's more like a service then. :D

[Mystic]

laws against theft were originally made by the rich so they can keep everything they stole or extorted from the poor. Anyone who takes back some of that is just keeping things balanced, nothing wrong with that. Stealing from the rich should always be applauded. Stealing should only be considered a crime if its from the poor and not so wealthy because they cannot really afford to be stolen from.

[Aliotroph?]

What you'd end up with there is still the assholes owning everything, only you'd have more violence.

[Raptor Jesus]

laws against theft were originally made by the rich so they can keep everything they stole or extorted from the poor. Anyone who takes back some of that is just keeping things balanced, nothing wrong with that. Stealing from the rich should always be applauded. Stealing should only be considered a crime if its from the poor and not so wealthy because they cannot really afford to be stolen from.

You are an idiot.

[REoL]

laws against theft were originally made by the rich so they can keep everything they stole or extorted from the poor. Anyone who takes back some of that is just keeping things balanced, nothing wrong with that. Stealing from the rich should always be applauded. Stealing should only be considered a crime if its from the poor and not so wealthy because they cannot really afford to be stolen from.

You've....got....to.....be......kidding....me..... .
Stealing is STEALING, period. Either way, they should be put away for a few years.

[Mystic]

Im not kidding, we are all stolen from all the time by the likes of politicians who make laws saying that we need to pay them taxes so they can give our tax cash to their rich friends in business, be that construction (especially roadworks) or weapons manufacture etc. We need to pay by the hour to park our car, more cash for the councils to waste, we pay so much duty on petrol that the price at the pump is a sick joke, something like 90 percent of the price goes straight to the government, thats outright legalised stealing. In the UK there is an advert on TV that warns that they can tow your car then scrap it if you forget to pay your annual car tax, thats demanding money with menaces, I would be sent to jail for that but its ok for the lawmakers. same thing with the TV licence, they have detector vans roaming around the country trying to catch folk watching TV without a licence, the fees from which fund the BBC so they can pay their talentless talking heads extortionate wages. They (politicians) also vote to give themselves quite a healthy salary and expenses at our cost.
I am of the opinion that a public servant shouldnt be getting paid more than the public he/she claims to serve. I dont hear you saying they should be in jail, quite the opposite, you want us to vote for the thieves.
The land and the water shouldnt be allowed to be owned by anyone, that is stealing from all of us.

Theft, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. you lot seem obsessed with petty opportunistic crimes, I think the stealing I have mentioned is much worse.

[Raptor Jesus]

Im not kidding, we are all stolen from all the time by the likes of politicians who make laws saying that we need to pay them taxes so they can give our tax cash to their rich friends in business, be that construction (especially roadworks) or weapons manufacture etc. We need to pay by the hour to park our car, more cash for the councils to waste, we pay so much duty on petrol that the price at the pump is a sick joke, something like 90 percent of the price goes straight to the government, thats outright legalised stealing. In the UK there is an advert on TV that warns that they can tow your car then scrap it if you forget to pay your annual car tax, thats demanding money with menaces, I would be sent to jail for that but its ok for the lawmakers. same thing with the TV licence, they have detector vans roaming around the country trying to catch folk watching TV without a licence, the fees from which fund the BBC so they can pay their talentless talking heads extortionate wages. They (politicians) also vote to give themselves quite a healthy salary and expenses at our cost.
I am of the opinion that a public servant shouldnt be getting paid more than the public he/she claims to serve. I dont hear you saying they should be in jail, quite the opposite, you want us to vote for the thieves.
The land and the water shouldnt be allowed to be owned by anyone, that is stealing from all of us.

Theft, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. you lot seem obsessed with petty opportunistic crimes, I think the stealing I have mentioned is much worse.

You are an idiot.

[Aliotroph?]

He does live in the land of the most evil taxes ever conceived though. Taxes on owning machinery and tools are downright evil. The people who support must be psychotic assholes. He also has good points about politicians. They deserve the same pay as those working in service industries and no more. They certainly should be shot for even proposing they be allowed to vote on their salary.

Britain really has a screwed-up system of government though. The Americans are so much closer to correct. Just need to stop the lobbyists (groups do not deserve rights or influence), rein in companies and churches (more of what I just said), cap pay for politicians, remove job security for civil servants, limit campaigning to 30 days, and add more civil liberties protection to the constitution.

Speaking of Mystic... @Mystic: Did you get my PM, man?

[+Acyclitor+]

lol UK police state

[Mystic]

I will check the PM in a minute.

Things are really bad here, the civil service employs more than 3 million people who all get relatively easy jobs with good wages and pensions at the taxpayers expense. On top of income tax and all the hidden taxes in the form of petrol duty etc we also have to pay a local council tax which is roughly 1200 pounds a year, 20 percent of which pays for the pensions of council employees. Councillors themselves dont have to pay the council tax and also get all their travel expenses, eating expenses and sundry other things all paid for by the tax payers. They are very kind to themselves.

About someone calling me an idiot repeatedly, not just in this thread but elsewhere too. I am not the one who is so devoid of ideas I have to resort to insults and name calling. I have resisted the temptation to indulge in a petty battle of wits with an unarmed man and will continue to do so.

[Aliotroph?]

You have done quite well at that. People with girlfriends seem to be happier and have an easier time with that. :D

[Monkey]

Sigma - "It does not matter whether I get shot so he can steal my wallet or I shoot him so I can keep it, the burden is the intent regardless of which way."
Although I don't agree with everything you have laid out in your arguments, I found this to hit on a very real truth that I don't think many people think about. Yet, if it was you who were on the line in a life-threatening attack, would you rather it be your life, or his?

Do I have the right to own murder tools? I think so.
Do I think it should easy to get such an item? Not at all. In fact, I would say the test to get a driver's license, at least here in Arizona, is a joke. The leading cause of preventable deaths worldwide of people 9-18 is automobile accidents. This being said, when I got my drivers license, I had no fucking clue how to drive. I was 18, I had maybe 20 hours of road experience. I was that statistic.
Now, I haven't killed anyone ...yet. But with those numbers, any rational mind would say that you should have to be pretty vigorously trained and tested before being trusted with a car. Some say this comes with experience, but look at the training they expect of airplane pilots. If driving a car had the same expectations in proper ratio to the dangers it presented, things could be much different. I think the same could be said for anything. Of course, 20 dollars in the right back alley and you're holding a gun.
How do you control behavior without having a totalitarian government?
How do you have safety and freedom in balance?

I'm somewhat looney, but I think the government is the real enemy in most cases.
It's 4am, and I'm getting too tired to offer up good, full fledged explanations so i'll cop out and say Zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/) is my cup of tea.

Oh, and Mystic isn't an idiot. Opinionated, biased, and maybe not someone who'd Id agree with 100% of the time, but one of the smartest guys I've ever known.
That being said, stealing is stealing. Though, I would argue taking what is yours has nothing to do with stealing.

[Phoebus]

Though, I would argue taking what is yours has nothing to do with stealing.Wasn't that O.J.'s argument (for the thing he's currently in prison about)? *cachap*

[Doom_Dude]

You are an idiot.Lets not just call people idiots because we don't agree with them. This looks like flaming to me so lets not do that please.

[Sigma]

Sigma - "It does not matter whether I get shot so he can steal my wallet or I shoot him so I can keep it, the burden is the intent regardless of which way."
Although I don't agree with everything you have laid out in your arguments, I found this to hit on a very real truth that I don't think many people think about. Yet, if it was you who were on the line in a life-threatening attack, would you rather it be your life, or his?

Do I have the right to own murder tools? I think so.
Do I think it should easy to get such an item? Not at all. In fact, I would say the test to get a driver's license, at least here in Arizona, is a joke. The leading cause of preventable deaths worldwide of people 9-18 is automobile accidents. This being said, when I got my drivers license, I had no fucking clue how to drive. I was 18, I had maybe 20 hours of road experience. I was that statistic.
Now, I haven't killed anyone ...yet. But with those numbers, any rational mind would say that you should have to be pretty vigorously trained and tested before being trusted with a car. Some say this comes with experience, but look at the training they expect of airplane pilots. If driving a car had the same expectations in proper ratio to the dangers it presented, things could be much different. I think the same could be said for anything. Of course, 20 dollars in the right back alley and you're holding a gun.
How do you control behavior without having a totalitarian government?
How do you have safety and freedom in balance?

I'm somewhat looney, but I think the government is the real enemy in most cases.
It's 4am, and I'm getting too tired to offer up good, full fledged explanations so i'll cop out and say Zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/) is my cup of tea.

Oh, and Mystic isn't an idiot. Opinionated, biased, and maybe not someone who'd Id agree with 100% of the time, but one of the smartest guys I've ever known.
That being said, stealing is stealing. Though, I would argue taking what is yours has nothing to do with stealing.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do if I was threatened with death in that manner-- with so much of an experience being based on subconscious thinking, feelings and instinct, I doubt anyone honestly could unless they had faced it before.

On the other hand, I am a very rational person. Very rarely do I act on how I immediately feel in most situations, so I tend to think I'd probably let the person shoot me. Like I stated earlier, murder is murder and I am certainly not about to fool myself into believing my life is more important than another person's. It isn't. I don't care to elaborate at the moment.

Moving on from that, I'm not sure what else you disagreed with but I'd like to take the initiative and point out much of the first post wasn't my opinion on any particular matter, I was simply making a point.

Regarding automobiles, yes-- this is all very true. There is a difference however, and it is a significant one. Automobiles have a very real and tangible use-value in most people's day-to-day life. There is no question they are the leading cause of death for young people in the United States, for a variety of reasons (some of which are related to what you wrote yourself), but that does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make them comparable to a gun. Considering how many people own automobiles and drive them everyday (the pure time spent driving back and forth from point A to point B alone), the statistic isn't surprising whatsoever. On the other hand, a gun is designed to murder and it has next to no actual use-value for most people this day in age. Some may argue it is a deterrent, but only through its capacity to murder with relative ease has the gun earned that title. People could easily spend the money they spent on a gun on a sophisticated alarm system or more fortified doors and windows (or whatever) if they absolutely need an additional deterrent-- of course, these things will not stop every potential criminal, but honestly, neither will a gun.

From here down, I am speaking generally, not necessarily to you Monkey.

Then there is the so-called real argument for guns (according to many people anyway)... that we need them in case the government ever becomes too corrupt and it needs to be overthrown. This is a joke. What is a 12-gauge shotgun (or one-hundred of them) going to do against fighter jets, bombers, artillery, tanks, so forth and so on?

I'm not doubting the power of guerrilla warfare, but considering how effortlessly Iraq was bombed into the ground and flattened to the extent you can practically tap crude oil with a straw-- a region consisting of people one-thousand times more passionate about their beliefs than the average American is about his, do you really think the success of such an uprising would honestly be dependent on how many rifles some guy owns?

Primarily, I simply don't see the average American being able to stand up to its own government / military-- as a matter of fact, at this particular point in time, the second coming of Christ happening tomorrow seems far more feasible than the citizens of America taking a combined stand of that scale.

---

Zeitgeist was okay. I respect the fact people are standing up more and more, but it still takes a lot of leaps in order to achieve its final message. The film comes off as pretentious rather often as well-- drawing allusions and relying on systems it clearly doesn't understand.

[Raptor Jesus]

Wow, I just somehow lost an epic post I just wrote for this! LAME!

tl;dwr (don't wanna rewrite) version...

You seem to be forgetting the recreational uses for guns (IE. target shooting and hunting). The latter I really only see good only if you're hunting for food and not just out to kill deer or we.

Also, I love the irony of your post Sigma. You read all of that and then you see "Kill or be Killed..." in you signature xD.

[Sigma]

My signature is a link to my Doom site for a map-set that I haven't worked on in close to a year because I've been so busy. I will release it someday though. Maybe.

I wish I had more time. I'm simply so anal about everything that it takes me like 2 months to make one room. This particular map-set is actually based on my first ever map (which was huge), so technically, you could say I've been working on it for 8 years. With that said, it has a tentative release date of sometime in 2025. I will let you know when it is done. =P

I would like to point out that if the legions of Hell ever invade Earth then I totally support everyone owning guns. That, or the zombie apocalypse.

[Raptor Jesus]

Still murder! Demons are living too!

[Sigma]

Maybe, but they supposedly smell really bad, so it's okay. Besides, they could be like viruses anyway, or so alien anatomically (or in whatever way) that perhaps the whole living, non-living or dead states don't even apply.

Zombies had their chance, died and came back to life. Fuck 'em.

[rustyslacker]

On the other hand, I am a very rational person. Very rarely do I act on how I immediately feel in most situations, so I tend to think I'd probably let the person shoot me. Like I stated earlier, murder is murder and I am certainly not about to fool myself into believing my life is more important than another person's. It isn't. I don't care to elaborate at the moment.
Existentialist surrender is hardly the best response.

Just because your life is valueless in relation does not mean that it is valueless absolutely. Why is it unworthy of defense? You, Sigma, are undeniably and irrevocably you, and that you are alive, awake, and yourself is all you have in this existence. Thus it deserves rabid protection. You don't get to come back. Your life, and mine, are insignificant in the scope of the universe, and maybe both of us will die without any lasting contribution to the planet or species. But your life is the best one you have, and probably the most important one to you.

I don't want to preach. I just sincerely do not understand the reasoning.

edit: Missed the last sentence of the quote. Excuse me.

[Aliotroph?]

Obviously if somebody attacks you your life is more valuable. How do I know this? Because they were enough of an asshole to try and kill you in the first place. Stop them in their tracks and you've done the world a favour.

[Mystic]

that doesnt actually happen to very many people in real life. Most murders are comitted by criminals against other criminals or by husbands/wives/boyfriends/girlfriends against their partners for many different reasons most of which are not robbery.

Unlike Sigma I do think Im more valuable to the world than some junkie scumbag who is stupid enough to try and rob me but for the reasons I gave earlier I really couldnt trust myself with a loaded gun, I have a very quick temper sometimes (I cool off just as fast though) and really cant trust myself in an angry rage. For that very reason I dont trust anyone else with a loaded gun either, no matter how much they protest their innocence, purity, lack of violent intent. Most of those same people are quite capable of getting all furious whenever anyone suggests removing their beloved firearms and would probably use them to kill in order to keep them, this is something I am quite sure of.

Welcome back Monkey, thanks for the kind words, I have remarkably similar opinions about your own good self.

[rustyslacker]

For that very reason I dont trust anyone else with a loaded gun either, no matter how much they protest their innocence, purity, lack of violent intent.
That is awful, awful logic.

[Mystic]

not out of place in this thread then.

I really cant imagine why Sigma is so down on himself though, reminds me of my girlfriend, she is the sweetest and smartest person I know but she hates herself and often wishes she were dead. Before she met me she often put herself in harms way and I suspect she still does but in sneaky ways like peeking over cliff edges from slippery rocks/slopes etc and driving while sleepy.

[Aliotroph?]

Yeah, I dunno what causes that. Having a horrible childhood tends to help it along but some people seem awfully good at hating themselves. For some reason, I'm also good at meeting these people. I should have become a therapist. ;)

[Mystic]

The horrible childhood is right, she was brought up in Soviet era Latvia. The Russians treated Latvia really badly, probably because they are not slavs.

Unda is quite strong minded and was constantly in trouble for her refusal to bend to the more stupid rules. Example, in her school the girls had to clean all their classroom desks while the boys did nothing. Some boys would deliberately make a disgusting mess on their desks and laugh about this.
One day Unda refused to do the desk cleaning, insisting its only fair that the boys should take a turn. This caused a big scandal, her parents were fetched from their work and had to come to the school to try and persuade Unda to clean the boys messy desks but she stood her ground, in tears of frustration at the injustice of the system.
I am so proud of her for that.

At the same school there was an annual prize of a holiday in the seaside resort of Jurmala awarded to the student with the highest marks. Unda was that student and was overlooked in favour of a prominent party members son.
Coming from a very poor rural community that holiday meant the world to Unda, she knew she was the best student academically and knew that trip was hers but they deliberately gave it to someone else. She was heartbroken to say the least.

I could go on all day with little anecdotes like that but should maybe save them for a book.

[Aliotroph?]

Kinda weird they would treat the girls to that kind of extra work in a Soviet class. Usually the Soviets liked to go around showing off how men and women could both do the same jobs and made a point of even doing things like women flying space missions 20 years before NASA was bothered about it. On the other hand, there certainly were no women running the politburo. Bah! The USSR was crap.

Your second story reminds me of my grade 6 class. We had a thing going in our school where the class with the most points on a chart (things like coming on time, grades, fewest detentions, etc.) would get a trip to the water park at West Edmonton Mall. My class won that thing by a long shot. We were the geek class. :D Anyway, the funding for that got cut and instead they gave us an hour of swimming at the YMCA next to the school! Bastards! That was still pretty fun anyway, though, and it worked out nice in the end because our teacher took us to Dairy Queen out of his own pocket.

It's good Unda had the will to endure that crap. I see no cause for self hating in all this though. She should be proud of those things.

You're never gonna have time to write a book. :p

[+Acyclitor+]

Most of those same people are quite capable of getting all furious whenever anyone suggests removing their beloved firearms and would probably use them to kill in order to keep them, this is something I am quite sure of.of that, you are quite right. try and see it from their perspective: the only reason any governing body would want to take away guns from law abiding citizens is to eliminate the people's ability to resist further encroachment of the government on civil liberties.

look at your own nation. its damn tough to get/own a firearm in the UK, and only a very, very limited ratio of the population has any. and since the time when this was enacted, the UK has become a damn near an Orwellian society - your wires are tapped, your traffic is scrutinized, and cameras peer down on your city streets. EDIT: also, as you were complaining about in the other thread, taxation out the ass, corrupt officials, over-regulation

[Aliotroph?]

Killing for a right to bear arms seems ok to me. Sometimes the price of freedom is blood -- preferably the blood of those trying to take it away.

[Mystic]

better to take away the power from the politicians and the rich than to turn the world into a kill or be killed free-for-all. Im all for restrictions on what politicians and other powerful people can do.

[Monkey]

Sigma, I think we are in more agreement than I originally thought. Though, I hope you never have to find out if your life is more valuable to you than someone else's. Mystic, you should hit me up on IM sometime. It's been a while.

[Mystic]

Thats true, its been years since I had a decent chat on IM with anyone. Im not sure Unda would put up with me having a 14 hour non stop instant message session though. I will try to get back into the habit, Ive just not had the urge to use messenger for a long time, dunno if its just that everything got so fancy and clunky or if its just that I dont have a lot of spare time on my hands anymore.
It would be nice to know how everyone is doing. Oh I hope you arent still planning that year long road trip. I think that irresponsible movie has had too much of a negative effect on a lot of young folk.

[rustyslacker]

Oh I hope you arent still planning that year long road trip. I think that irresponsible movie has had too much of a negative effect on a lot of young folk.
Irresponsibility is one of the greatest defenses against an encroaching and suffocating system!

[Aliotroph?]

Yeah, 14-hour IM session is bad. You could manage even an hour or so, Mystic. Haven't seen you on at all since some time last year. :p

[David.Dweedle]

I still cant believe people blamed a Video game for this tradgedy.

Its a Persons choice to go kill a bunch of people not a Disc's or Zipfile's.