Blurring the line between humans and animals!

[Jethro]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/sep/04/stem.cell.research

[JohnnyRancid]

Eww........

[blood imp]

Hmm... human-other hybrids. I'm glad that they're [currently] not allowed to grow beyond 14 days. Although how do we know we won't be implanting more new viruses into our systems?

[Jethro]

Hmm... human-other hybrids. I'm glad that they're [currently] not allowed to grow beyond 14 days. Although how do we know we won't be implanting more new viruses into our systems?
How do we know we won't be removing them? The gene map of humans and animals mixed is impossible to predict. It could go either way, and I don't know nor claim to know about genetics to make an accurate prediction of odds for diseases. But, on the bright side, you said [currently]. Do you know what this means? Someday, maybe, catgirls. *lovely*

[blood imp]

Do you know what this means? Someday, maybe, catgirls. *lovely*
I laughed :D

[Giftmacher]

Hmm... interesting. If we can find a way to give ourselves the animal's disease immunities, and give the animals our didease immunities, that would be pretty cool. Although I don't know enough about the subject to be sure that's possible.

[Jethro]

Hmm... interesting. If we can find a way to give ourselves the animal's disease immunities, and give the animals our didease immunities, that would be pretty cool. Although I don't know enough about the subject to be sure that's possible.
Well, if we alter ourselves so what the diseases effect is no longer there, then we'd be immune. Problem: Banana has 68% human DNA. A lot of basic stuff is needed for life, so altering to all disease immunity could end up making us dead.

[Giftmacher]

Well, if we alter ourselves so what the diseases effect is no longer there, then we'd be immune. Problem: Banana has 68% human DNA. A lot of basic stuff is needed for life, so altering to all disease immunity could end up making us dead.
Once again, I know nothing about embryo research or biology, so I guess it's a good thing I'm not doing these expiriments. *haahaa*

[blood imp]

Ha, we are 68% like bananas on the molecular level. Anyway, once we become immune to some viruses, won't they mutate to get around our new immunities?

[Giftmacher]

Ha, we are 68% like bananas on the molecular level. Anyway, once we become immune to some viruses, won't they mutate to get around our new immunities?
Um... *zuh* Sure, I guess. This isn't my area of expertise.

[blood imp]

I know, as you've said it three times now. :p I'm asking anybody who cares to answer.

[Giftmacher]

I know, as you've said it three times now.
Wow, I have. *laff*

[Aliotroph?]

Er, looks like the whole point of this is just to do regular olde human research. So no animal viruses or catwomen.

[Jethro]

Er, looks like the whole point of this is just to do regular olde human research. So no animal viruses or catwomen.
Ding ding ding! Winner!
Yes, this thread as originally supposed to be about the moral implications of this. We may be combating human diseases, but we're aborting half-human fetuses like crazy. (would be?)

[blood imp]

Morally, its cruel. We're taking animal embryos, combinig them with human cells, and aborting them withing two weeks. Not a very good thing. Although the embryos probably can't feel the pain... but still sick. On the bright side, we may be combating disease (including animal).

[Aliotroph?]

No, we're taking animal cells, excising the animal DNA, inserting DNA and turning them into freakish human hybrid cells that are primarily human. It's really no different than experimenting with loads of bacteria or flies. Only reason we even do it is because the damned Christians won't come off their arrogant idea that it's any different to screw with a human embryo instead of an animal one.

[+Acyclitor+]

I support it for the death metal ramifications

[Nomad]

Too bad the experiments don't involve consuming said bastard foetuses.

[Aliotroph?]

I support it because it's immoral not to conduct such research. We need to know all we can if we ever want to be more than dim flash in life of the universe (or even the planet).

[JohnnyRancid]

We may be combating human diseases, but we're aborting half-human fetuses like crazy. (would be?)

saving the people we love, tossing the ones we dont want.

[Aliotroph?]

An embryo is not a person. It is a clump of cells, no more sentient or feeling than my foot would be if you hacked it off (for the few minutes before it died).

[blood imp]

An embryo is not a person. It is a clump of cells, no more sentient or feeling than my foot would be if you hacked it off (for the few minutes before it died).
Yes. And besides, if it's either more animals and we die off, or we take some animals and live (or know more), better us than them.

[Pieter Enis]

We humans are not close to being extinct, are we now?

[Nomad]

That's probably what everyone thought around 1346 before the black plague wiped out nearly half to two thirds the human population.

[blood imp]

We humans are not close to being extinct, are we now?We might be. Who knows when the next super-virus comes. Or Global Warming (although that we have a general idea of). Thene there are chances that Earth will be blown up by a supernova blast. So we CAN be close to extinction.

[Giftmacher]

If god thinks it would be funny, then we are. *evilol*

[blood imp]

If god thinks it would be funny, then we are. *evilol*
Nice one *thumbs* :D

[Giftmacher]

Danke sehr. :D

[JohnnyRancid]

Influenza kicked our ass after WWI

[Props025]

Life is life no matter what, and we either have to take our views and make them truth, or let nothing matter at all.

Lets take this for example, a farmer doesn't care for a plant until it see's the light of day, yet humans on the other hand, can't decide when the h*ll life begins....

I say, let everyone decide for themselves, and like politics, it's impossible to catagorize everyone into two groups. Opinions are like a-holes, everyone's got one.

***addition****

When I say life is life, I'm referring to everything being equal, and what would it be without memory. Everything keeps a record of time, yet some want the entire record to be thier own (religious coooks). Some would joke about not setting goals in life, so you would never let yourself down, but I'm a firm believer in this. I would just add to that saying, and go with, do the best you can, and you're capable of doing whatever you set your mind to.

We'll argue for the rest of eternity, on when life begins, if we must, is sperm already alive? If not, is the egg? Is it kind of similar to a seed in soil? it takes time, but eventually it's alive? I think it's a bad analogy, because as far as we know, plants don't really think on their own, it's more instinctive. So there's no comparison on plant life, to human embryo's.



My point on all this, life is recycling, if one is too focused on their own existence, then I would call that selfishness. Do as you can, and make sure it's not for yourself, but everyone.

I say,

Humans 2008 - Animals -10000000000

unfortunetly, I think in terms of survival, the -10000000000 is a better number.

[blood imp]

I say,

Humans 2008 - Animals -10000000000

unfortunetly, I think in terms of survival, the -10000000000 is a better number.
I didn't get this part.

[Props025]

Sorry, it wasn't really a true value, I was just saying, that as humans, our current year is soon to be 2008, and with that, the only thing we have to show for is shelter and entertainment. Where as animals are probably where they were when this whole "show" began. Evolution.

Sorry, not to make any more confusion
animals (negative)-100000000 "the beginning"

[blood imp]

We're all evolving with every new generation, if I'm getting you correctly. And actually, homo sapiens have been around for about 195,000 years.

[Props025]

Agreed, I guess I'm going to have to be more specific. I'm simply saying that life isn't perfect, and with all the different views out there, it's going to take more time (to find a flawless existance), where this planet, within the boundries of nature, let us sustain our own lives, and co-exist with everything else on this planet....without selfdestructing.

Animals have made no progress in our humans views, however, they could continue living without human interferance, and more than likely not over populate/pollute. They also don't keep timelines. Or wage war...I'm saying, that there is a sort of yin/yang, to life. Animals live closer to thier center, where as humans have extremes.
One guy rides a bike, the other walks and one rides a Humvee. One person prays for life, where as the other goes out on killing sprees. These things are unecessary. Animals survive, that's it, no free time to worry about what animals across the world are doing.

[blood imp]

Indeed. That is the most important aspect of life, survival. Even humans do it instinctively. However, the thing about humanity is that we must KNOW everything. If ever a question arrives that we don't know the answer, you can bet your ass we're going to attempt to figure it out. Animals lead a much simpler life, being simply "Who gives a damn how it works as long as it does".

[Aliotroph?]

I can say with full confidence that a sperm is alive and so is the egg. It ain't a person but it sure is alive. Now if you want to argue that embryos are people that's when you draw out believers in the great Sky Stalin.

[Props025]

Aliotroph, I agree whole heartedly. I personally, think that everything contains life, and it's up to the observer to determain when and where it begins. ......And that's simply it, being the observer. I don't know, and I sure don't care....I won't look to science to prove my point, all I know is what I know, and that isn't very much.

On the other hand, I don't want to seem like a bible beater. I used to work in a resturant and one day, a fool came into my store. He asked, do you believe in....? I simply said No. not the individual that most people look up to and follow. He said, "You're going to hell".

In my mind, that's foolish. Especially telling that to someone who would protect you until the death. I know one thing, ...as much as you think you know, I would take time as second guess, because you could be wrong. The world was flat, and now it's round.



****addition****

By bible beater, I'm saying, that I am one of the closest to anti-bible. I'd like to think that my point of view is un-skewed.

[Aliotroph?]

Funny how everybody mentions the Earth being thought to be flat. I can't remember ever reading any document saying that was a serious thought in the western world (among the educated) in the last 3000 years or so.

[Props025]

Yeah, the earth being flat, is just a story. Yet, for reasons unknown, it's always brought up. What can I say, as a child, that was something I was taught.

[Nomad]

Funny how everybody mentions the Earth being thought to be flat. I can't remember ever reading any document saying that was a serious thought in the western world (among the educated) in the last 3000 years or so.

Well, there was Sam Rowbotham that wrote "Earth: Not a Globe" a little over a hundred years ago, and the folks that followed him. However, he was a bit of a Snake Oil salesman, so I'm not sure if he believed the crap he wrote either.

[Props025]

I think that we "humans" over analyze. Can't we just do our own day to day business, and let things rest? All of the "cardinal" rules, that we preach to our youths, are long forgotten when you become an adult.

Animals, from what I'm told, destroy their Eco-system, by over populating. Example, deer eat a lot of vegetation in their region, so I guess humans find it necessary to hunt them....to balance things out. I've never actually witnessed animals completely destroying the area in which they live...In someways....now that I'm thinking about it...NVM


***edit***

Survival of the fittest

[blood imp]

I've never actually witnessed animals completely destroying the area in which they live...
Humans, lol.

As for the flat Earth argument, a Geocentric System is a much bigger thing that was argued about.

[Props025]

Well, I guess I should say people instead. Shoot, maybe all of our ideas and concepts are what began the movie concept, the Matrix. Self-destruct.

[Pieter Enis]

Silverback Gorillas wage war.
Ant colonies do the same thing.

And have you seen what Fire Ants can do to land?
The same goes for Locusts, to a lesser extent though.
Of course, you could say that they're killing themselves by destroying everything in their paths, but they keep doing that.
But yes, we're about the only species that can destroy one continent and get the food we eat the same day on another continent and enjoy this meal in a third continent. All in a day's work.

Either way, thinking about sperm as being alive makes me feel weird inside.
I don't think it's really alive, that is if a cockroach or a chicken with it's head cut off isn't alive anymore. Just depends on how you define something as being 'alive'.
Sperm can also be seen as some strange tubular thingy that spastically whips it's 'tail' back and forth and just ends up in the right place on the right time. The rest is chemical stuff.
I think being alive should mean that you're aware of your surroundings. At the least.
This makes me feel weird mainly because if you think about Sperm as being alive (I've never typed that as much in one post :p) you could think of other human organs as sentient beings as well. This would turn us and about every being out there into large Gene Sacs. And the real life in this universe are actually the chromosomes. We are just vessels.
And that thought freaks me out a bit.
Not that I'd notice a difference if we were but vessels.

[Props025]

Do animals keep track of time, or is it just instinct?

[FATAL]

Most animals rely on nothing else than instincts. I believe it's a reason why they're more agile than humans. Our instincts have dampened as our cognitive brain activity has increased, and therefore actions that we used to "know by heart" suddenly require thinking so that these things must actually be learned.

[Props025]

I agree FATAL, and that's why I never forget where I came from. I'm into martial arts, yet at the same time, I destroy myself(cigarettes & alcohol)....is the mind stronger than the body?

[Pieter Enis]

I agree FATAL, and that's why I never forget where I came from. I'm into martial arts, yet at the same time, I destroy myself(cigarettes & alcohol)....is the mind stronger than the body?
Untill we get some sort of cool psychic powers, I'm going to go ahead and say that the mind lasts longer than the body, but that the latter is the strongest. You're not going to learn anything by sitting around in your chair all day long.

[Props025]

I'm with you Pieter. I personally believe that the mind is very powerful.
Example:

I've learned to put my fist through solid objects. In the past...I wouldn't be able to do so..without destroying my hand. I've had a lot of training...and have learned that your body has a life force...this force can only be recognized after training and meditation. After you understand your chi(life force), with your mind, you can accelerate it, while making it tougher than wood. Simply move your hand to a particular place in time...



***edit***
I couldn't do any of that...if I didn't believe.

[Pieter Enis]

I actually said that the body is strongest. Up untill we learn some cool psychic-like powers.
What objects are you referring to? Wood or are we also talking metal and bricks?
Through training you can accomplish wood 'n bricks, however. It just takes getting used to.
Now, if you could hit through a brick wall of a feet or so, then I'd believe the chi thing.

[Props025]

Stone...not all concreate....metal? Nope, Haven't punched through metal yet...only created a simple puncture...It depends on what I'm striking. More so, when I started, I couldn't strike through any of it....it's all about conditioning. I went to a Shaolin Temple a few years back, and witnessed a demonstration of "Push Hands". I was taken away by this. The demonstrating monk, threw back his disciple about 5 yards(sliding on the ground most of the way)...on film, this disciple simply vanished from the cameras view(after I later watched it again). It was powerful, yet, the monk didn't gain any real momentum. I was impressed and began to study diligently. I'm currently practicing "Iron Palm". I've conditioned my hand to be as tough as "iron". With belief and conditioning, I've been able to break through wood/concrete slabs/drywall/stone like material.

[Props025]

To hint on this "Iron Palm"...I'll give you a secret...it's about your position in life, especially regarding this planet, it's revolving around the sun....the suns position in the universe and so on.

[Pieter Enis]

Figured it was conditioning :p
Sounds like you're a lvl 10 Monk or something.

[Props025]

I'm no level 10 monk.....success is not achieved through association. It's all about believing in what you're doing...at that moment. That's why our cars can "hit" a deer....and this deer runs off, like it wasn't even hit. I personally believe that the deer has its own agenda...and it's simply survival.

[blood imp]

agenda...and it's simply survival.
Nearly every living thing's "agenda" is survival. Humans included. Although most will give up and die if hit by a speeding car.

[Pieter Enis]

I'm no level 10 monk.....success is not achieved through association. It's all about believing in what you're doing...at that moment. That's why our cars can "hit" a deer....and this deer runs off, like it wasn't even hit. I personally believe that the deer has its own agenda...and it's simply survival.
Can you hit real fast? Like double the normal speed?
And can you stun people for about 60 minutes when you hit them in a special way?
Oh, lastly, do you feel like you can dodge things more easily the more you train in the ways of martialism? Or Martial Arts :p

If those are all true, you're a lvl 10 monk.
I think you also get to be resistant to lesser poisons, but I wouldn't go trying that out unless you're lvl 20. You're immune to all poisons then.

[Props025]

Lol, well, I've been in 5 car accidents, walked away without a scratch. I've never measured the speed of my punch/kick, nor the amount of pressure given. I don't claim to break human capabilities....I've witnessed some incredible feats. I personally, know, that my old job(one of construction, to get out from under artificial lights), allowed me to demolish drywall/paneling/plaster/brick & anything that wasn't seen behind it...

I wasn't trying to prove a point to my fellow co-workers, I was practicing what I've learned(punching through shit, instead of using a hammer). As far as I know...I can make my hand more solid that what I'm putting it through....my knuckles are distinguish "hard". The skin, on these knuckles, occasionally bleed, because of scrapping. I don't claim to be invincible, but I can tell you what I told my brother...(may sound crazy, but you really don't know me, nor what I've personally experienced)....

"If our minds could "swap" bodies, I don't think you could lift this rock/boulder as I do. It's about your mind and what you "believe" you're capable of."

Out of context...you may not understand what I'm referring to...but my brother knows....my friends....and those close to me. I'm no super hero...I've just come to understand what I am capable of. Yet, I'm still learning, and I'm really far from knowing it all.

***edit***
There was one time, where a co-worker, asked me to break a solid concrete brick. I knew..off the bat, that I couldn't....self-doubt. I put on a glove, and struck it...with the intention to split it in half. Nothing. Maybe I wasn't strong enough, maybe I didn't believe enough...who knows? I didn't hurt myself, nor draw blood (the glove protected my skin), but that was that.....shortly after, I kicked it in two.