Weapons packs? [Archive] - New Doom Forums

MR_ROCKET

September 3rd, 2007, 02:56 PM

Ok, I'll DM you and you have to use the pistol while I get to use the SSG.
Doom2's weapons are balanced.. How the hell are you going to justify anything with a pistol vs. a SSG in (any) game lol. :D
What do you want, all the weapons to do the same damage? - now that would be unbalanced heh.

Anyways, there's the Quake3 weapons mod for Doom2, I don't remember the file name though.

JohnnyRancid

September 3rd, 2007, 03:27 PM

Whens the last time youve actually played deathmatch? Everyone starts with a pistol, and every player has to find a reasonable weapon to kill people with. Everyone has an equal (balanced) opportunity to obtain weapons unless the map sucks. Almost all [good] deathmatch maps have easy access to a weapon that does decent damage, like a shotgun, super shotgun or chaingun. You have to live long enough to find better weapons such as plasma guns and rocket launchers. And if you have enough time not to get slayed before you get the bfg, you get to slaughter everyone until your short supply of ammo depletes.

Consider how Quake 1 deathmatch is, one person with shotgun against someone else with a lightning gun. Unreal, one person with an impact hammer and another person with a flak cannon. Red faction, one person with a pistol and one person with a sniper rifle. I think the example you made of poorly balanced weapons applies to almost every deathmatch game in the world except for maybe Soldat where a weapon is selected from the main list rather than being found, or Counterstrike where every weapon can be fatal.

MR_ROCKET

September 3rd, 2007, 03:45 PM

Exactly..
And in Quake3, if anything was unbalanced in that game, it would be the railgun heh.
But other than that, yeah Doom2's DM is pretty well balanced.
For example if someone is charging at me with a plasma gun, I just strafe backwards and blast them with a SSG. It's really how well you play the game and how well you manage the weapons.

Oh to add, BFG against SGG, again it's how well you play, or how well you know the characteristics of the weapons.
Most of the time people say OH NOES, the BFG is in the map!, heh sure the BFG is a powerful weapon, but that's only if it's "players range is in your range".
Keeping that in mind, it's limited.. giving you the opportunity to pop the opposing in the back of the head with your trusty SSG.

Nomad

September 3rd, 2007, 04:31 PM

What I mean, is that in, say, Unreal Tournament, or Quake III Arena, every weapon is an efficient killing tool. In UT even the Enforcer although weak, is still often more useful than the rocket launcher sometimes--and against many other weapons, you still have a pretty good chance of making a kill with it. Can't really say the same about the pistol and rocket launcher in Doom.

In doom, the pistol and shotgun are only "balanced" when your opponent has a pistol or shotgun respectively. Otherwise, you are toast.

Either way, I didn't start this thread to argue the weapon balance in Doom. I just wanted some weapon packs. :P

@Mr_Rocket: Do you know where that QuakeIII pack can be found?

MR_ROCKET

September 3rd, 2007, 05:53 PM

Well no argument going here just trying to help with the understanding of a few things.
Say one player has the plasma gun, and you have the shotgun, that doesn't mean your toast, if you look at it that way, you will be toast lol. - from that point, you do everything in your power not to get hit by a plasma pellet. ;)

Um, not off hand, first place I'd try would be the idgames archive though.
The problem is "what's the file name?" :D
I'll see if I can find it. ;)

EDIT:
I'm thinking this is it:
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=13727

Nomad

September 3rd, 2007, 08:11 PM

If you're in tight quarters, the plasma rifle will burn you to a crisp, but out in an open area I can agree the shotgun has a bit of an advantage especially with circlestrafing.

Thanks for looking that up. It appears it's not quite what I wanted. Oh well. Maybe I'll try to make my own UT pack.

rustyslacker

September 3rd, 2007, 08:16 PM

Cool stuff, Rocket. That Quake 3 weapon pack gave me a boner. *dark*

MR_ROCKET

September 3rd, 2007, 09:47 PM

@Nomad, first rule of DM, don't put your ass in tight quarters. :D
Seriously though, if your not shooting, you want to be as far as possible from the opposing. ;)

@rusty, That's um, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing lol.

jake250

September 4th, 2007, 04:33 AM

In Doom the weapons are far from balance especially in closed map, the pistol is total crap as a starting weapon (so playing in a map you don't know and can't find a weapon is the worse experience you can have), the fist is useless too and I don't see people getting owned by the chainsaw if they have any strong weapons.

The game is automatically "not" balanced if you can class one weapon as "weak" and one weapon as "strong". I'm not saying the game is flawed and all, and yes you can go and get the same weapons too, but I'll never consider that balanced, thats something completely false.

What is true though, is that Doom's DM is a LOT of fun. That I can't deny :) I rarely got the chance to play it though.

(Sorry if my whole posts is off-topic, but there is nothing else to say about weapons mod :/)

Nomad

September 4th, 2007, 10:11 AM

In Doom the weapons are far from balance especially in closed map, the pistol is total crap as a starting weapon (so playing in a map you don't know and can't find a weapon is the worse experience you can have), the fist is useless too and I don't see people getting owned by the chainsaw if they have any strong weapons.

The game is automatically "not" balanced if you can class one weapon as "weak" and one weapon as "strong". I'm not saying the game is flawed and all, and yes you can go and get the same weapons too, but I'll never consider that balanced, thats something completely false.

That's pretty much exactly what I mean. In games that are designed for multiplayer, no weapon is clearly superior to the others. They each have their own merits and flaws, but each are efficient killing tools unto themselves.

Anywho. I'm going to talk to Osiris's_Legacy tonight and see if we can put together an Unreal Tournament weapons pack. Shouldn't be too difficult.

JohnnyRancid

September 4th, 2007, 12:05 PM

Personally I believe any weapon set in any game is balanced as long as every player has the equal oppurtunity to obtain those weapons. And like you said, the pistol cant do shit to anyone (and I have to agree with you there) but that's why most DM maps give you an SSG at an early start. You've played the Skulltag DM maps havent you?

I guess what you mean is for a weapon set that doesnt have any shit weapons, because as anyone who's ever played DM before, the pistol is good for zombie killing and nothing more. Even killing imps with the pistol is a rough task. but I think pistol and not berserk injected fisties are the worst Doom's got. Everything else is pretty fatal except for regular shotgun if you have bad aim.

FATAL

September 4th, 2007, 12:53 PM

The skulltag deathmatch maps are bad in my opinion. They lack any imagination and have silly and even more imbalanced weapons and powerups. If I pick a totally random deathmatch map pack from the id games archive (yes, even pre 95 wads most of the time), I'll probably enjoy it more than the ordinary skulltag levels. The experiences I've had with forbidden lan deathmatch at school with 5 different wads are usually so much more enjoyable with non-skulltag maps.

As for the singleplayer maps, I don't see the point. They're all horrible for deathmatch. It's simply not fun at all. MAP01, for example, is just a race to the BFG or plasma gun and being so horribly cramped I can't see how it could be enjoyable.

jake250

September 4th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Some single player map can be fun. I enjoyed my match in MAP02, but it could've been better. DM oriented wads are just not around when I need them.

Yes, the fact that you pretty much spawn and get a SSG in Skulltag is a good thing for balance, but like FATAL said, the other weapons just make things even more ridiculous. The only thing I liked about Skulltag is how I could enjoy it a bit with Bots, but otherwise I take normal Deathmatch any day.

Whats fun in Doom is how simple it is, and how as much as skill matter, the thing is just so fast and furious anyone can frag anyone. I'm quite skilled and my friends are quite bad at the game, yet they had only half my score, while in most games where its the same thing I would just be owning them. The simplicity helps this. And Skulltag just add too much things for no reasons and try to makes things "better" or more "modern", which, IMO, is far from a good thing.

So sad our true online community is so small...

lucius octavion

September 4th, 2007, 03:56 PM

Here's my opinion.

I wish there would be a weapon pack that is as true to the original doom weapons but only more realistic. I would add better sprites for all the guns. If someone could actually make this, it would be the most hardcore weapon mod ever.

And then change their functionality a bit, to improve the gameplay even more with even more blood splattered action. But NO reloading. That would spoil it.

Fists:
I would implement Wild Weasel's style of fists that he uses in his wads. Rapid punching as fast as you can click with hooks n' jabs.

Pistol:
Then I would make the pistol be able to fire semi auto as in Half Life 2, which would be really awesome and realistic. Also I would allow the option for dual wielded pistols.

Shotgun:
I would make the shotgun more realistic by adding a true buckshot and not just a horizontal array of hitscans. Also I would like the idea of manually having to click again to use the pump. So that way you are given the choice to control the rate of fire more realistically.

SSG:
The SSG is already pretty good so I wouldn't have anything to say about that.

Chaingun:
For the chaingun, I would add a bit of spin up and spin down as a balance thing. And then I would increase the damage and rate of fire by only a little bit.

Rocket Launcher:
First of all the rocket launcher should look like it is in a shoulder mount. The rockets should also have way more speed. In doom right now the player can actually run almost as fast as a rocket which makes no sense at all. The rockets should also affect more of a radius and have improved explosions.

Plasma Rifle:
This weapon is also pretty well done already.

BFG:
The BFG is also pretty good but it would be interesting if there was a charge up like in doom 3. I don't know about that though, it might make it worse.

Chainsaw:
The chainsaw is alright. I wish it did more damage though.

I'm just thinking that this could make the play of doom much more enjoyable as far as the weapons go. What do you think?

MR_ROCKET

September 4th, 2007, 06:17 PM

The difference that people seem to see as far as balanced weapons in a game is how well they can play. IMO if you get owned a lot, your going to go ahead and say the weapons aren't balanced enough for your limited skill level.
This is something that I was talking about earlier, where one says OMG it's teh BFG run run!
And usually the same group goes for the plasma gun, and all they will ever want to use is the plasma gun ( because they think it's the most powerful weapon. but that's not true).
And they get raped everytime. lol

eh, sorry I had to bring that up, and no I'm not pointing fingers. :D

Anyways, I'm working on some old skual style DM maps and will probably release one of them soon for play testing if anyone is up to it. ;)

lucius octavion

September 4th, 2007, 06:25 PM

Yes I know exactly what you are talking about, and really it has nothing to do with weapons. I once was dueling a guy, and he was so good. He even let me have handicaps and he still owned me. He wasn't allowed to use anything but the pistol and he still owned me while I had an SSG. And I'm not even a bad player.

I still think that if my idea were made, that would just be totally wicked sick.

MR_ROCKET

September 4th, 2007, 06:46 PM

Reviews it, yeah that could actually be a pretty cool weapons mod. I wish I could say more but without actually seeing it in action it's tough to imagine them as of yet.
It still sounds like it could be neat though, and wouldn't change things to much.

Super fast rocket's would be scary. :D
Players would have to start over from scratch with an "oh shit can I dodge it or not" thought to them selfs. :D

JohnnyRancid

September 4th, 2007, 07:21 PM

The chaingun sucks for deathmatch but its really good for killing monsters, which was probably what it was put in doom to do. The Doom64 double headed chainsaw is nice, but even that isn't really fast enough to kill people unless you pin him in a corner. The rocket launcher does go pretty slow, but it can still do a pretty good job and putting people in threatening situations. Just kinda spray rockets randomly so it's really hard for the victim to predict the next rocket to focus on. It can kill people pretty well, you just need way more than one rocket to do it. Berserk + Fisties = 70% damage a hit. And it really isnt impossible to punch people in doom DM. Buckshot for the shotgun is realistic but what purpose does it serve? Aside from being more innacurate.

Nomad

September 4th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Inaccurate? Have you ever fired a shotgun? In reality, the spread from a shotgun really isn't as much as most games and movies depict (though, that depends on the choke). I would favor the shotgun having a more realistic shot spread. Although, the SSG's spread would might have to be fixed too since its spread is a bit too large as well--and since it would then be literally twice as powerful as the regular shotgun and only slightly less accurate, the reloading should be slowed down a little more. But personally, I think the reloading is too slow as is, so we should probably just leave it alone and pretend that the choke on it is massive.

lucius octavion

September 4th, 2007, 09:58 PM

Say have you guys ever played True Combat: Elite?

Nomad

September 4th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Looking at it, it looks like one of those tactical shooter CS type games. Never been into them.

MR_ROCKET

September 4th, 2007, 11:03 PM

Berserk + Fisties = 70% damage a hit. And it really isnt impossible to punch people in doom DM. Buckshot for the shotgun is realistic but what purpose does it serve? Aside from being more innacurate.

Lol there's occasions, not always having the opportunity with the chainsaw and get a lot of frags with. There was this one time I got like 20 something chainsaw kills heh, I think it was in an old Dweller map. - there was like 3 or 4 of us, it's not really the 1 on 1 weapon, unless that was the only weapon. Berserkers are always fun because you can do a bit of damage with another weapon first, and then smack the hell outta'em, turning them into slop part of the time ;)

I think if anything could be done with the shotgun is put a scope on it (I mean a real scope) that you could zoom-in with an stuff as most long range weapons have, then maybe it would get used more often. Though in Doom 1 you have no choice. other than it saves bullets. :D Now that I think of it, wasn't it Twilight Warrior (http://www.doomworld.com/twilight/main.htm)? that had a scoped weapon mod.
Here (http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=10328)

There is also, the ROKS (http://www.doomworld.com/fanatic/) weapons mod, which I always thought was a neat mod.
There's all sorts of weapon mods really, I remember playing GoldenEye in DooM2 DM one time.

lucius octavion

September 5th, 2007, 06:08 AM

Shame how everyone compares other tactical games to CS... what a shame... :(

FATAL

September 5th, 2007, 06:49 AM

Yes, the fact that you pretty much spawn and get a SSG in Skulltag is a good thing for balance, but like FATAL said, the other weapons just make things even more ridiculous.
No, I don't like how they always become super shotgun fights. It makes the game monotonous. When is the last time that you actually remember using the ordinary shotgun a lot in a deathmatch?

The chaingun would need serious fixing. Its sniper like abilities can easily be exploited in a large map, as people who have played with me have surely noticed. The chaingun shouldn't have super accurate shots, and there should be a specific rifle weapon with high accuracy (not pin point, though).

The rocket launcher is very fine, it's not too powerful nor too weak. Same with plasma rifle. However, the BFG is a bit overpowered, mainly because of the high range and high damage of the "afterblast". Quake 2 had a good BFG, and I think Doom 3 had about the same, except with charge up.

However, the super shotgun is the main problem in Doom deathmatch. Not only it's terribly lag unfriendly (Even with a ping of 150 it starts to become unusable), but it's also way too often used by mappers compared to its great power. I don't think I've seen many maps without the super shotgun. The imbalance in Doom deathmatch is both the weapons' and the mappers' fault. Better balanced weapons would make it easier for mappers to balance their maps, though.

It's still a pretty good game for deathmatch, even with all these problems.

lucius octavion

September 5th, 2007, 08:20 AM

Yes, with my idea with spin up and spin down with higher ROF and higher damage, it would mean it gains an advantage at close-medium range, but the player can no longer exploit chaingun tapping. Same with the pistol. It is also possible with zdoom to make bullets inaccurate at long range.

The normal shotgun would be better with the realistic buckshot. Meaning not just horizontal and not a huge spread. It would also have the manual cocking with the pump action.

The super shotgun is a tough one though. I totally agree with FATAL that the SSG is very powerful but it always turns into an SSG fight, which is boring and is very unfriendly to people with higher pings. And yes it is both the weapon and the mapper's fault.

I wish someone could actually make a weapons pack with my ideas in it, centered around making a more realistic balanced gameplay. The only thing is the fast rocket. I actually think they are ok the way they are. For single player is a different story than multiplayer.

Nomad

September 5th, 2007, 11:54 AM

I know someone who is working on it. I'll post about it when we get whatever bugs there are worked out. :)

JohnnyRancid

September 5th, 2007, 12:40 PM

I still dont get why realistic buck shot is better. You cant even look up and down in doom. and if you shoot someone far away, the buckshot hits the ground or above his head. How in any way shape or form does realistic buckshot help balance the weapon set.

Nomad

September 5th, 2007, 02:25 PM

I think most of us are referring to a Zdoom weapons pack.

And did you miss my post about shotguns? You obviously have never fired a shotgun either. Realistic spread isn't that much.

lucius octavion

September 5th, 2007, 03:42 PM

Dude, Nomad is right. The shotgun spread really isn't all that huge depending on the gun. The shotgun will be effective and close-medium range and the realistic buckshot basically means that it isn't as much a sniper rifle. Horizontal spread doesn't really help because then you have hitscans fanning out too much. With a realistic buckshot you have somewhat more even distribution of bullets.