The Religious Debate Thread

[xbolt]

So we can argue as much as we want without getting off-topic, I'm going to start this thread. Here goes:


Life could not have arisen without a designer behind it. It's simply not possible. You know as well as I do, that a book couldn't have appeared without a writer. Since something as simple as a book can't exist without a designer, how can life, which is much, much, more complex?

Now, you say that science is "working on it". Which is true. They're trying to find something, ANYTHING, that can remove God from the equation.
Yes, I'm accusing you of the very thing you accused me of in the death thread. Due to preconceived convictions, you ignore mounting evidence to oppose your belief, and grasp for anything that might support it. Having a 'closed mind'.

You also say that: "As complex and unlikely as the universe is, God is infinitely more complex and unlikely."
God possesses infinite power, whereas the universe does not. I'm pretty darn sure that has something to do with it.

[+Acyclitor+]

Life could not have arisen without a designer behind it. It's simply not possible.everything is possible. your absolutions are not self-evident - nothing ever is.

Due to preconceived convictions, you ignore mounting evidence to oppose your belief, and grasp for anything that might support it. Having a 'closed mind'.while I wouldn't call any of Intelligent Design's circumstantial evidence (and remember I did some arguing for it in another thread, go look), "mounting" - I will grant you that you have a point about some of evolution's supporters being "closed minded." it seems to me that some scientists are simply too complacent with the current status quo of Darwinism and refuse to look seriously at other possibilities, or even address the few but alarming problems with evolution in any way but to explain around them. I'll grant to them, however, that the Christian Creationism and Intelligent Design theories lack any sort of real science and therefore can't very well be considered seriously.

now as I've said before in other threads I perceive my dieties as non-literal in existence. meaning they are of symbolic and metaphysical origins (to me, this doesn't make them any less "real", mind you). after all, its basically impossible to believe in such gods literally when your a "chameleon pagan" such as myself (devotion to multiple pantheons).

somebody asked me recently why I don't look at the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god the same way. my answer didn't even take time to compose: because the Hebrew religions and their god (his name is originally Yahweh, btw) are weak and self-destructive propaganda machines pandered to the stupid, scared, and naive (hence their popularity) which hold no philosophical value. throughout history they have accomplished nothing but the destruction of knowledge and genocide. even today the followers of these religions are hard at work to force their will onto others (my supporting evidence of this statement can of course be seen everywhere. anti-gay legislation and a host of other bigotry in the American govornment, and the endless tides of bloodshed in the middle east - to name a few prevalent examples).

now, XBolt, I made multiple points in this post. I am interested in hearing your responses to each of them. Sometimes it seems like I get ignored, so please indulge me :)

EDIT: and good thread, we should have done it earlier.

[FATAL]

Now, you say that science is "working on it". Which is true. They're trying to find something, ANYTHING, that can remove God from the equation.
Yes, I'm accusing you of the very thing you accused me of in the death thread. Due to preconceived convictions, you ignore mounting evidence to oppose your belief, and grasp for anything that might support it. Having a 'closed mind'.
Your logic fails.

The main point in science is that we know nothing, and then we try to learn on how things are by observing the world around us. However, with religion it's always the other way around, we "know" the fact, and then we try to find things that support this conclusion.

Let's pick the popular example, evolution. The idea came around, not because it read in an old book somewhere, but rather because one could use one's noggins and figure out that it must the why things are how they are.

Trying to prove that the stories in the bible are true is the exact opposite. If even with today's technology it would be impossible to store a huge load of animals on some boat, then it is very unlikely that it has been possible anytime before us.

Let me bring a traditional point to the conversation.

If someone was to grow alone and isolated, with no contact to other people, he would not have religious tendencies, or they wouldn't be like your only correct religion, Christianity. The person will learn things about the nature, but since no one teaches him about Christianity, he will not know about it. To put aside the fact that he is going to hell for no apparent reason, the main point is that even though all scientific inventions were forgotten, someone would rediscover them, but if everyone forgot about religions, new ones would probably arise due to human psyche, but they would not be the same as the last ones.

[JohnnyRancid]

Wtf dont start threads like this. Religion is not something to be debated. You should be required by human ethics to respect anything someone else beleives, regardless of how farfetched or illogical it is.

If someone believed that there was an octopus in the sky that lives on the clouds and rains spiritual macaroni and cheese on the souls of all those who masturbate as soon as they wake up, then so be it. I dont care if it's fucking weird as hell. You dont even have to believe in it. But you cannot, repeat CANNOT tell them their wrong if that what they want to believe. Religion is designed to avoid as many possible solutions to make it proven wrong, even if it can be proven wrong, dont tell people who believe in it that it's wrong. Theres nothing worse than finding something you believe in is completely wrong.

I'm not that offended of this stuff myself, but I know it's possible that people will, so I just want to end this before it starts. It starts off as flame wars in this little forum, but in reality there are millions of people who died in the middle east because someone believed that what someone else believed was wrong, and they had wars about it. Debating religion causes war, and it can simply be avoided by respecting what others believe in. Bottom line, Do NOT debate religion, no matter what circumstances.

[rustyslacker]

Now, you say that science is "working on it". Which is true. They're trying to find something, ANYTHING, that can remove God from the equation.
"Removing God from the equation" is not a conscious effort. The scientists don't get together [at least to my knowledge] and say "HAY GUISE! Let's remove god from the equation KEKEKEKEKE". It just happens that way because God is a bunch of bulls-- sorry, bologna.

You posted in another thread, "If you take the time to look, the universe screams intelligent design." I am sure you would take interest in vestigiality. For the sake of your unfortunately neglected education, I shall explain: Vestigial structures are those organs or physical traits that are present in organisms but are not in use. Meaning, these structures are no longer useful to survival, and are leftover from an ancestral organism.

For examples, I shall quote Wikipedia:
In whales and other cetaceans, one can find small vestigial leg bones deeply buried within the back of the body. These are remnants of their land-living ancestors' legs. Many whales also have undeveloped, unused, pelvis bones in the anterior part of their torsos.
The coccyx, or tailbone, is the remnant of a lost tail. All mammals have a tail at one point in their development; in humans, it is present for a short time during embryonic development. The tailbone, located at the end of the spine, has lost its original function in assisting balance and mobility, though it still serves some secondary functions, such as being an attachment point for muscles, which explains why it has not degraded further. In rare cases it can persist after birth and must be surgically removed.
Vestigial structures. Why?

Moving along..

Life could not have arisen without a designer behind it. It's simply not possible. You know as well as I do, that a book couldn't have appeared without a writer. Since something as simple as a book can't exist without a designer, how can life, which is much, much, more complex?
Logical failure. Here you go again with the "Since I, a homeschooled 10th-grader, obviously don't fucking get it, scientists with college educations and, often, decades of experience, must not either!"

Ever heard of the Miller-Urey experiment? I would guess that you haven't. Clicky. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) Basically, these guys made an enclosed, sterile glass structure containing compounds (water, ammonia, methane, hydrogen) that would have been present on Earth before life formed. There was a connected glass structure with a pair of electrodes. The water was heated to cause evaporation, and sparks were fired using the electrodes (analogous with lightning). The result? Amino acids began to form.

Clicky again. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acids) It's likely you won't read it, and if you did it's very technical anyway and I don't get much of it. But amino acids are "building blocks" of proteins essential to life as we know it.

So in recap: You say life could not have arisen without a designer. But these two dudes set up a glass contraption with some gases and water, and let it cook for a while, and the contraption carries out the first development of life all on its own. Hmm. I know you'll just say that this proves nothing, and it didn't actually cause life to arise. True enough; the full development of living organisms would have taken a very long time (long to us humans, at least).

Religion is not something to be debated. You should be required by human ethics to respect anything someone else beleives, regardless of how farfetched or illogical it is.
Religion is argumentative by nature.
It starts off as flame wars in this little forum, but in reality there are millions of people who died in the middle east because someone believed that what someone else believed was wrong, and they had wars about it. Debating religion causes war, and it can simply be avoided by respecting what others believe in.
Logical failure. Again, religion is absolute and inherently argumentative. The system of belief is what causes these wars, not some external "debate". In Islam, "martyrs" such as suicide bombers are rewarded with a free stable of virgins upon their arrival to heaven. There's no "debate" going on in the Middle East, it's warfare based on incompatible systems of belief. Inherently incompatible. Your peacemonger attitude will, unfortunately, not help anything.

Xbolt: I eagerly await your response. *evilol*

[Nomad]

Wtf dont start threads like this. Religion is not something to be debated. You should be required by human ethics to respect anything someone else beleives, regardless of how farfetched or illogical it is.

I was going to stay out of this thread, but now you've amused me.

What gives you the authority to say what people should or shouldn't debate?

It starts off as flame wars in this little forum, but in reality there are millions of people who died in the middle east because someone believed that what someone else believed was wrong, and they had wars about it. Debating religion causes war, and it can simply be avoided by respecting what others believe in.

Why don't you do a little research and find out exactly WHY these people are at war? I guarantee you that it is NOT because of opposing beliefs. The Palestinians aren't mad at the Jews for being Jews--they're mad because their former country was cast aside by western politics and invaded without their consent. This is the case with most of the peoples in this area--Britain carved all their territories up without any kind of regard for the native people's desires.

At any rate, why is it that Religious beliefs shouldn't be questioned, while it is perfectly fine to debate politics? Politics are nothing more than beliefs and opinions as well. It's OK to give someone the third degree for believing that Blacks shouldn't vote because whites are better, but you can't question their belief in Zeus?

Besides, if believers don't mind having their beliefs questioned by others (like the original poster who is a devout Christian himself), you have no right to tell them that they shouldn't. It's our own choice.

[xbolt]

Eek! *shocked* Massive posts! I'm a little tired after my weekend trip, so if I skip something, sorry. Oh well, here goes:

Logical failure. Here you go again with the "Since I, a homeschooled 10th-grader, obviously don't fucking get it, scientists with college educations and, often, decades of experience, must not either!"
Hee hee, I can't help but laugh. In the death thread, you said I should be open minded and think for myself. Here I am, thinking for myself, and you tell me to blindly believe whatever the scientists say. To put it in your own words: "Yay for self-contradiction!!"

Ever heard of the Miller-Urey experiment? I would guess that you haven't. Clicky. Basically, these guys made an enclosed, sterile glass structure containing compounds (water, ammonia, methane, hydrogen) that would have been present on Earth before life formed. There was a connected glass structure with a pair of electrodes. The water was heated to cause evaporation, and sparks were fired using the electrodes (analogous with lightning). The result? Amino acids began to form.

Clicky again. It's likely you won't read it, and if you did it's very technical anyway and I don't get much of it. But amino acids are "building blocks" of proteins essential to life as we know it.

So in recap: You say life could not have arisen without a designer. But these two dudes set up a glass contraption with some gases and water, and let it cook for a while, and the contraption carries out the first development of life all on its own. Hmm. I know you'll just say that this proves nothing, and it didn't actually cause life to arise. True enough; the full development of living organisms would have taken a very long time (long to us humans, at least).
I have indeed heard of the experiment. So they made amino acids. It takes a lot of amino acids in the right order to make a protein. If it's not in the right order, or a piece is missing, the protein won't function. It takes a lot of protein to make DNA. A LOT. Again, if one piece is out of place or missing, it won't function. Plus, I've heard that the guys at NASA say that he ancient Earth's atmosphere was nothing like what they used in the experiment.

Vestigial structures. Why?
They have some purpose. I've heard, (Not completely sure, I'll give you that) that the bones in humans hold up the muscles that keep you from pooping in your pants. (That was the exact wording I heard.)

Let's pick the popular example, evolution. The idea came around, not because it read in an old book somewhere, but rather because one could use one's noggins and figure out that it must the why things are how they are.
Scientists also throw out old theories when they don't work anymore. Hint, hint.

throughout history they have accomplished nothing but the destruction of knowledge and genocide.
FYI, a lot of the great scientists of history were Christians. Newton, Copernicus, Einstein, Mendel, etc.

[rustyslacker]

They have some purpose. I've heard, (Not completely sure, I'll give you that) that the bones in humans hold up the muscles that keep you from pooping in your pants. (That was the exact wording I heard.)
Did you not fucking read it? The point of them being vestigial structures is that they have no purpose. A few of these structures have functions different from the functions of the same structures in an ancestral species, but for the most part (in the two examples I posted) they are utterly pointless.
I have indeed heard of the experiment. So they made amino acids. It takes a lot of amino acids in the right order to make a protein. If it's not in the right order, or a piece is missing, the protein won't function. It takes a lot of protein to make DNA. A LOT. Again, if one piece is out of place or missing, it won't function.
Given enough time, a lot of stuff could happen in an enclosed glass contraption. ;)
In the death thread, you said I should be open minded and think for myself. Here I am, thinking for myself, and you tell me to blindly believe whatever the scientists say.
Not at all! I believe that you should consider every explanation and argument and believe what is best supported by the available evidence. Which is not what you're doing.

[Nomad]

FYI, a lot of the great scientists of history were Christians. Newton, Copernicus, Einstein, Mendel, etc.

Newton and Copernicus lived in times where there was no societal alternative. Newton didn't discover anything that the Indians and Arabs hadn't discovered almost 300 years earlier. Einstein was pantheist.

Just thought I'd note that.

[FATAL]

I am not certain of Einstein's stance. I've read some of his writings, and in some he seems to be somewhat religious and in some not at all. He was a zany dude, and truly intelligent in many ways other than just physics too. Scientists also throw out old theories when they don't work anymore. Hint, hint. I believe you missed my point. The point was that trying to prove that god exists hasn't got anything to do with the scientific method, and such attempts should therefore be dismissed.

[xbolt]

Not at all! I believe that you should consider every explanation and argument and believe what is best supported by the available evidence. Which is not what you're doing.
Actually, I am. I look at the situation, and I find intelligent design fits the evidence much better than evolution.

The point of them being vestigial structures is that they have no purpose. A few of these structures have functions different from the functions of the same structures in an ancestral species, but for the most part (in the two examples I posted) they are utterly pointless.
I believe that they do, in fact, have a purpose.

Newton didn't discover anything that the Indians and Arabs hadn't discovered almost 300 years earlier.
Did those guys invent calculus?

[rustyslacker]

Actually, I am. I look at the situation, and I find intelligent design fits the evidence much better than evolution.
Indeed, I have also analyzed this situation, and my conclusion is that you are a fool and an idiot. The evidence speaks for itself.
Did those guys invent calculus?
Yes.

[xbolt]

Indeed, I have also analyzed this situation, and my conclusion is that you are a fool and an idiot. The evidence speaks for itself.
And the flaming is initiated in post #12! :p

[Jethro]

I believe that they do, in fact, have a purpose.
And the purpose of the non-functioning hip bone of a whale would be...?

[+Acyclitor+]

Did those guys invent calculus?many ancient civilizations had knowledge of astrology that rivals our astronomical science today. you can't do that without calculus.

for example, the Mayan, with their long count calender, predicted exactly each winter solstice for thousands of years, and even today when these dates are translated into the Gregorian calender, they are correct. they understood Platonic years (or "great years") long before modern man did. a Platonic year is roughly 26000 years long, so no human civilization has even seen one of these pass before. furthermore, the Mayan correctly predicted that the Earth will become aligned with the horizontal axis of the Milky Way on the winter solstice of 2012. it proves that they understood mathematics very, very well.

FYI, a lot of the great scientists of history were Christians. Newton, Copernicus, Einstein, Mendel, etc.how does them being Christian make their accomplishments Christian? I'll remind you that these men were considered heretics in their time, your church even tried to shut them up. besides, these guys didn't event the laws or even discover them, they just rediscovered them and put modern scientific terms to it.

Ever heard of the Miller-Urey experiment? I would guess that you haven't. Clicky. Basically, these guys made an enclosed, sterile glass structure containing compounds (water, ammonia, methane, hydrogen) that would have been present on Earth before life formed. There was a connected glass structure with a pair of electrodes. The water was heated to cause evaporation, and sparks were fired using the electrodes (analogous with lightning). The result? Amino acids began to form.so they god amino acids to form under controlled conditions? that isn't very impressive.

Eek! Massive posts! I'm a little tired after my weekend trip, so if I skip something, sorry. Oh well, here goes:but how much energy does posting on a forum take? maybe I'm just imagining this but you never seem to reply to my truly analytical points - I'm beginning to think that you intentionally avoid them because they completely own your face :p

[rustyslacker]

And the flaming is initiated in post #12! :p
Yeah. I tried to restrain myself for my first posts. :)
but how much energy does posting on a forum take? maybe I'm just imagining this but you never seem to reply to my truly analytical points - I'm beginning to think that you intentionally avoid them because they completely own your face
I've noticed that as well! Interesting, isn't it..

[Jethro]

maybe I'm just imagining this but you never seem to reply to my truly analytical points - I'm beginning to think that you intentionally avoid them because they completely own your face :p
If there's one thing in common in these kinds of threads, it's that the religious side always stops responding to difficult questions sooner or later.
:D :D *dark*

[xbolt]

Yeah. I tried to restrain myself for my first posts. :)
Finally gave into temptation, eh?

many ancient civilizations had knowledge of astrology that rivals our astronomical science today. you can't do that without calculus.
I think you mean astronomy, but whatever.

for example, the Mayan, with their long count calender, predicted exactly each winter solstice for thousands of years, and even today when these dates are translated into the Gregorian calender, they are correct. they understood Platonic years (or "great years") long before modern man did. a Platonic year is roughly 26000 years long, so no human civilization hasn't even seen one of these pass before. furthermore, the Mayan correctly predicted that the Earth will become aligned with the horizontal axis of the Milky Way on the winter solstice of 2012. it proves that they understood mathematics very, very well.
No human civilization hasn't even seen one of those pass before. That means every civilization that has ever existed has seen one. (Sorry, can't help pointing out the grammar error :D )

so they god amino acids to form under controlled conditions? that isn't very impressive.
At least we agree on something...

but how much energy does posting on a forum take?
It requires a lot of time to call upon my vast and ancient source of wisdom so that I may have the knowledge of what to say. :p

:D :D *dark*
My source of knowledge may be vast and ancient, but I'll admit that I don't have an answer for everything you... *chuckles* ...Throw at me. (Pun alert!!!)

But hey, you don't have all the answers I want, either.

[+Acyclitor+]

No human civilization hasn't even seen one of those pass before. That means every civilization that has ever existed has seen one. (Sorry, can't help pointing out the grammar error :D whoops, my bad. I'll go fix that.

My source of knowledge*snicker* may be vast*chuckle* and ancientBWHAHAHAHAHAHAH

but I'll admit that I don't have an answer for everything you... *chuckles* ...Throw at mebut you did make this thread, it just kinda feels to me that you have the burden of arguing your point and responding to ours. instead you just seem to pick out small parts of our posts and make tiny little frivolous arguments and just kinda ignore our big atomic bomb points.

[Jethro]

Jet throw

I will kill you if I ever meet you in real life.

[xbolt]

*snicker*

*chuckle*

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I'm glad you find it funny. I thought it was a pretty lousy joke when I wrote it. :p

but you did make this thread, it just kinda feels to me that you have the burden of arguing your point and responding to ours. instead you just seem to pick out small parts of our posts and make tiny little frivolous arguments and just kinda ignore our big atomic bomb points.
You mean like how I'm 'ignoring' this section of the post and writing bad jokes instead? *funnynot*

I will kill you if I ever meet you in real life.
What? All I did was make lousy puns on everyone's names.

If you had more of a sense of humor, you could have changed my name in the quote to Xblot. That's better than idle threats. (Plus, I probably deserve it. :D )


But seriously, Acyclitor has a point. I do not answer some of the more difficult questions, because I don't have an answer. But neither do you for some things.

For example, I still don't have an answer as to where life came from in the first place. And, going back to something from the death thread, you haven't answered satisfactorily why two magnets are attracted to each other. Or two planets. These three points are my 'atomic bombs'.

[Nomad]

For example, I still don't have an answer as to where life came from in the first place. And, going back to something from the death thread, you haven't answered satisfactorily why two magnets are attracted to each other. Or two planets. These three points are my 'atomic bombs'.

Your "atomic bombs" are moot. Unless the force behind magnetism and gravity is God, those two points have nothing to do with the discussion. We already discussed magnetism and I'm pretty sure we've all decided your claim--that because you don't understand magnetism, no one else can--is completely preposterous. As far as how life began, that is an answer that still evades science. But I wouldn't be so confident that an answer contrary to your beloved story of creation won't be found.

Though, it seems to be natural for Believers to insert deities into gaps when they do not know the answer. Before the microscope was invented, diseases were thought to be caused by demonic possession and curses.

*plop*

[Jethro]

Jeth, row that boat.
Passes. Jet throw does not.

[xbolt]

We already discussed magnetism and I'm pretty sure we've all decided your claim--that because you don't understand magnetism, no one else can--is completely preposterous.
Again, we bring up the point that you say I should just believe whatever the scientists say. I'm trying to understand it, but the answer you gave made absolutely no sense at all.

Passes. Jet throw does not.
Yay! I pass! Can I graduate now?

[Jethro]

Yay! I pass! Can I graduate now?
Nope. Lol. :D

[Nomad]

Again, we bring up the point that you say I should just believe whatever the scientists say. I'm trying to understand it, but the answer you gave made absolutely no sense at all.

So you believe whatever the clergy says instead?

[blood imp]

This may seem a bit off, but posts were made as I wrote it. Sorry.

What's wrong with Jet Throw?
Anyhoo...
Wtf dont start threads like this. Religion is not something to be debated. You should be required by human ethics to respect anything someone else beleives, regardless of how farfetched or illogical it is.
HAHAHAHA!*rofl*
Religion is made to be argued about. No offense to you or your sympathy, but religious argument is one of my favorites.
Exactly why should I repsect other's beliefs? I'm not saying that people should be forced to loose faith, but nothing says I can't dislike it. Although, your argument would make more sense if the "others" didn't wish to argue, and pointed out to leave them alone. As far as I can see, xbolt and +Acyclitor+ don't seem to be disrespected or bothered by our discussion.

that a book couldn't have appeared without a writer. Since something as simple as a book can't exist without a designer, how can life, which is much, much, more complex?
A book can easiliy exist without a writer. Look at them coloring books! :D
How can life? I'll try later. Although, for one thing, you have to look at the fact that LIFE IS NATURAL, whereas a BOOK IS MAN-MADE. Although, then again, you could say a book is a tree-carcass, which makes it remotely "life".

You also say that: "As complex and unlikely as the universe is, God is infinitely more complex and unlikely."
God possesses infinite power, whereas the universe does not. I'm pretty darn sure that has something to do with it.
Ho ho ho! And tell me, exactly how do you know what power the universe has? For all we know, there may be things a thousand times more deadly and complex than what we can observe right now. Science (and religion) is not all-knowing. I'm not saying it is. In fact, unlike religion (at least some) our understanding of how things work is changing all the time. Science changes based on new discoveries and mistakes. That is something religion cannot due, as far as I can tell.
Anyway, we have NO IDEA what is behind our line of sight.
Then comes God. God provides a real simple way of providing answers to our questions: We were all made by a being with infinite power and wisdom, and we, the ones who pocess more intellect then anything else known to exist, are at his mercy. A rather sad look on life, if you ask me. And once again, have you ever seen God? Just how do you know what power he pocesses? How do you know that he's not some student in god-school, and we're here 10th-grade science experiment? Eh?

Anyway, back to life. How could life exist? Atomic and sub-atomic interaction. Accidents in fusing of molecules. Deoxyrybonucleic acids. Calcium, protein, and all that jazz. Chemical reactions. Here's my outlook on life: we are chemical reactions. It may seem depressing, but if you're me, it's a lot better than being some asshole's (I'm going to hell :D) boredom experiment. And, it has some self-respect. We are capable of destroying planets. All it would take for Earth is a arsenal of Nukes. We can whipe out the roaches, too, with toxins and such. WE ARE VERY FUCKING POWERFUL! And yet, we are all made by some great being? No thanks.

Anyhoo, good night people. Wish you all some nice dreams and whatever. Don't let Satan get you :p

[xbolt]

A book can easiliy exist without a writer. Look at them coloring books! :D
A joke made by someone other than myself! :D

How can life? I'll try later. Although, for one thing, you have to look at the fact that LIFE IS NATURAL, whereas a BOOK IS MAN-MADE. Although, then again, you could say a book is a tree-carcass, which makes it remotely "life".
Yes, the book is man-made. It CAN'T exist purely from natural causes. And neither can life.

And once again, have you ever seen God?
Did you see when the first life formed? Were you there four billion years ago?

*Big mass of stuff saying how powerful we are*
Ah, but all that stuff added up, is still a finite amount of power, and therefore negligible. (I did laugh at the roaches thing, though. :D )

So you believe whatever the clergy says instead?
He makes more sense.

Nope. Lol. :D
You did what I said! *party*

[Nomad]

Haha. Religion and "makes sense" don't belong in the same statement. :P

[Jethro]

Haha. Religion and "makes sense" don't belong in the same statement. :P
http://xs216.xs.to/xs216/07252/worth.png

[Nomad]

He makes more sense.

Ok, Ok. I'll give a more proper response. Some examples of a clergyman making sense would include: people rising from the dead, talking shrubbery, several thousand hungry creatures being stuffed into a rickety schooner for 40 days and 40 nights, people wandering deserts for 30 years without food or water, men parting seas, strongmen losing all their strength when their hair is cut off, people living over 170 years, and I could go on. And that's not even the fringe lunatics. :P

[xbolt]

Ok, Ok. I'll give a more proper response. Some examples of a clergyman making sense would include: people rising from the dead, talking shrubbery, several thousand hungry creatures being stuffed into a rickety schooner for 40 days and 40 nights, people wandering deserts for 30 years without food or water, men parting seas, strongmen losing all their strength when their hair is cut off, people living over 170 years, and I could go on. And that's not even the fringe lunatics. :P
*Ahem*
The magnetic force is actually due to the finite speed (the speed of light) of a disturbance of the electric field which gives rise to forces that appear to be acting along a line at right angles to the charges.
Say what? *zuh*

[+Acyclitor+]

the great flood story is in a lot of ancient cultures, its in the bible as an artifact from older Mesopotamian myth.

there is a theory that every once in awhile Earth's poles move (imagine the poles stay where they are, but the earth rolls on its side). this would cause the ice caps to suddenly find themselves in warmer waters and would melt vary rapidly and would cause flooding throughout the globe. and of course weather would be way way screwed up for a long time afterwards. its not really supported by much evidence though, just random anomaly-type things such as fruit trees in arctic areas that were frozen fast enough to avoid decay. its more of a "it would explain a lot of stuff" type of idea than "this is what the evidence clearly shows" type of thing.

EDIT: here is a random unsupported hypothesis on the Noah and the flood. what if the ark was a spaceship and the animals were just genetic samples from which aliens could make clones and repopulate the Earth!?

anyway, xbolt you amuse me sometimes. you are perhaps the only person I've ever spoken with who can make a conclusion out of their own lack of comprehension.

[Aliotroph?]

So JohnnyRancid respects my belief that cannibalism is morally sound? Man, even the most militant atheists usually won't go there! I wonder how much flak he gets for respecting the beliefs of the Klan.

And I don't like my side of the argument using illogical arguments. You don't need calculus to figure out where the stars are going to go and I'm pretty sure the Mayans didn't have it. Predicting the stars isn't that hard. You just watch them long enough to figure out the pattern. It can take hundreds of years to get good at it but their priests had the time. They had a good notation for record keeping; it doesn't look like a reasonable notation for advanced math.

I also dispute xbolt's claim that most evolutionists are trying to take God out of the equation. Most of the ones I've talked to believe in God. They just tend to believe he built the universe as a big machine and set it going, and sometimes they figure he might tweak the gears a bit. On some level this could be intelligent design but it's worlds away from the lunacy that is Genesis (which happens to be full of clever metaphors, many of which may have been intended that way off the start). Charles Darwin himself believed in God.

Now I still think the concept of a supreme being is stupid and really just a side effect of the human tendency to see a hand controlling everything, a person watching them, a monster in the closet, etc.

And in response to Acyclitor's post: I'd like to see a giant spinning ball roll on its side AND change the axis of its rotation fast enough to freeze the fruit trees before they rot. You may as well just believe God willed the flood. Since continental drift seems too slow my best guess would be some neato weather changes.

[+Acyclitor+]

And I don't like my side of the argument using illogical arguments. You don't need calculus to figure out where the stars are going to go and I'm pretty sure the Mayans didn't have it. Predicting the stars isn't that hard. You just watch them long enough to figure out the pattern. It can take hundreds of years to get good at it but their priests had the time. They had a good notation for record keeping; it doesn't look like a reasonable notation for advanced math.your not grasping what the Mayans did. they had full knowledge of things we didn't discover until the 1950s. they even knew where Earth was (and where it was going) in relationship to the rest of the galaxy, which is extremely recent stuff for us today. EDIT: and I am reminded that they were one of the earliest civilizations to understand the concept of zero.

off-track fact: the Dogon tribe of Mali have know for thousands of years that Saturn has rings and that Jupiter has many moons, even though they have never possessed telescope technology. furthermore, they know that Sirius is a binary star. many of the anthropologists who have studied the Dogon agree that it is impossible for them to know these things without the aid of technology - leading some people to hypothesize the tribe has had contact with extraterrestrials. the Dogons themselves say they learned these things from "the Fathers of Knowledge."

And in response to Acyclitor's post: I'd like to see a giant spinning ball roll on its side AND change the axis of its rotation fast enough to freeze the fruit trees before they rot. You may as well just believe God willed the flood. Since continental drift seems too slow my best guess would be some neato weather changes.well as I said, it isn't a well supported theory.

[Nomad]

*Ahem*

Say what? *zuh*

You don't quite seem to realize the implications of the claim that "I do not understand this, therefore neither must anyone else." This literally is the claim that someone who has studied physics for 7+ years on the university level can not understand things that someone who has a maximum of a 10th grade physics education can not understand.

You will never get anyone to take you seriously when you make claims like that.

[+Acyclitor+]

his dad *smirk*

[Nomad]

his dad *smirk*

I shudder to think of any kind of proper parent that encourages such self-righteous attitudes. But unfortunately, you're probably right.

[Johanbeyl]

I'm trying to draw a parallel between science and religion, help me a bit.

When someone says they believe, because God speaks to them and they've seen miracles and they feel His presence in their life, it is easily shunned, because there's no tangible proof, right?

Why then rather believe the scientists when they say they've proven that evolution happened, that God does not exist? It's also untangible proof.

What I'm trying to get to is that each person has to make up his or her own mind about what their belief system requires. Tangible proof or faith. If you believe in religion, that's pure faith, based on what the authors of the Bible tell you. If you believe in science, but you haven't seen the proof with your own eyes, that's also faith. After all, aren't the scientists sort of the priests of science?

As for tangible proof - alright, so we built a particle accelator and maybe time travel is possible and yes, some species adapt, but how do you see those results in front of your eyes? You don't. You take someone else's word for it. Your life's circumstances make it so that that option is the one that best fits into your world. Some people feel God's presence and that fits neatly into their world. Yet again, not tangible proof, just faith.

Look, I agree that religious people sometimes like to runaway from giving answers to fundamental questions, but how can you deny them the right to believe, to hope, to pray? Likewise, scientist like to throw half-baked theories into the fray and make assumptions based on non-existant data. That can't be right either.

I believe that if God exists, we'll find out soon enough - what's life expectancy these days? 70? If He doesn't, well, then at least you've lived your life with the goal of striving to something bigger. For a lot of people that's important, some other's have other goals.

I can't say this enough. If there's one thing Christianity has brought to this world, it's the option to choose, in the new testament anyway. You've got the choice to choice Jesus Christ. If you don't want to, don't.

It's all about choice.

[Nomad]

I don't recall ANYONE ever claiming that if evolution is true, then a god or gods is/are non-existent. All proving evolution and abiogenesis does is reflect that the creation story described in the bible is false.

Likewise, scientist like to throw half-baked theories into the fray and make assumptions based on non-existant data. That can't be right either.

That is not science. And most of the so-called "scientists" that do this are part of the "Creation Science" field, like this douchebag (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb4UdbA37Lw). And we can't forget Mr. Ken "Dr. Dino" Hovind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind), who is currently serving ten years for tax evasion and embezzlement (among a ton of other crap). Beware the wolves in shepherd's clothing.

[FATAL]

Being somewhat self-centered at times, I'd like to remind you of this post I made earlier:
If someone was to grow alone and isolated, with no contact to other people, he would not have religious tendencies, or they wouldn't be like your only correct religion, Christianity. The person will learn things about the nature, but since no one teaches him about Christianity, he will not know about it. To put aside the fact that he is going to hell for no apparent reason, the main point is that even though all scientific inventions were forgotten, someone would rediscover them, but if everyone forgot about religions, new ones would probably arise due to human psyche, but they would not be the same as the last ones.

Religion is all subjective. It happens in humans' messed up little brains. Children can be manipulated to believe in anything, and human psyche works so that if you believe in something, you try to find evidence for it. Children see monsters in dark places, UFO people see flying saucers and religious people feel god around them. The only thing that puts the last object into its own category is that it's "OK" for adults too to believe in god(s), and that's only because it's so popular already.

Brains (and all other organs for that matter) are very imperfect, and therefore cause delusions at times. May it be the boogeyman or god, brains see what they want to see.

[Johanbeyl]

I don't recall ANYONE ever claiming that if evolution is true, then a god or gods is/are non-existent. All proving evolution and abiogenesis does is reflect that the creation story described in the bible is false.

Alright. Does it mean that if the creation story is false, that the next logical step would be to say that God is also false? Or do we accept that humans are non-perfect beings with a limited capability of understanding the universe as a whole and that they will and should draw parallels to explain what they feel and see?

[+Acyclitor+]

I had seen recently on some news coverage of that bizarre creationist museum that about 31% of Americans believe the Bible should be taken literally. that was a bit shocking to me because anybody who has done any real bible study knows that it isn't a book the literal, its a book the metaphorical. so I just kinda shake my head and think, for the millionth time, "fuck people are stupid." to think, these crazy bastards vote.

[Johanbeyl]

Religion is all subjective.

Yes, it's about choice. The church might have forced people to believe in their version of life back in the day, but it has always been about choice.

.. UFO people see flying saucers ..

UFO's are not real? *ohmy*

Brains (and all other organs for that matter) are very imperfect, and therefore cause delusions at times. May it be the boogeyman or god, brains see what they want to see.

If we are not perfect, and I agree on that, how can we ever understand the perfect? And with that I mean in terms of science or religion. We're looking for the perfect answers, but we're limited by our intellect and frail bodies. I guess there are two kinds of people, those who will believe in some higher power that falls into that part of perfection we do not understand, and those who will wonder for all eternity. Now my question is, do you believe in "something" or do you stay without all the answers forever? I can see why some people would like to choose to stay without answers, but for others the notion of God is their salvation. I disagree with your statement that religion happens in people's messed up little brains. Religion is about choice. I'm sure most of the people here has been brought up in a religious setting, but the ones who did not choose to pursue it are happy with their choices. Yet again, choice.

If I were alone on an island, without any outside interference, I would still look up at the stars and realise that there must be something bigger out there, some force that added the final ingredient to make life possible at all. I'd probably be pissed for being alone on that island, but yeah, that's a different topic. *wacky*

[Nomad]

Alright. Does it mean that if the creation story is false, that the next logical step would be to say that God is also false? Or do we accept that humans are non-perfect beings with a limited capability of understanding the universe as a whole and that they will and should draw parallels to explain what they feel and see?

Logic has no place with Religion. Faith by definition is irrational belief in something that doesn't have tangible proof of its existence.

At any rate, while evolution and abiogenesis could be used as arguments against the existence of a personal god or gods, there's always the pantheistic "god" and the deist style god.

[Johanbeyl]

.. abiogenesis .. pantheistic .. deist ..

Googling.*eek*

Edit - Right. And that sorta brings me up to speed.

Those are interesting notions Nomad. Thanks for pointing them out to me.

I don't know yet exactly into which category my existence falls, but I do believe that Jesus died on that cross for my sins. May be that some of the Bible's parts are a bit of storytelling, but I think the purpose of it is to get the message across that we've got options besides that of dying without hope.

But please continue the discussion, I find it interesting to hear other people's opinions.

[Raptor Jesus]

I haven't been ehre in awhile so I don't know what everyone has said

Bible's parts are a bit of storytelling
That's exactly what I feel the whole Bible is. It's just a bunch of stories teaching good morals.

[Nomad]

I haven't been ehre in awhile so I don't know what everyone has said


That's exactly what I feel the whole Bible is. It's just a bunch of stories teaching good morals.

Good morals like slavery, misogyny, genocide, and babykilling. ^____________^

[xbolt]

Good morals like slavery, misogyny, genocide, and babykilling. ^____________^
The Bible teaches that those are wrong...

[rustyslacker]

You have never read the bible, then.

[Nomad]

The Bible teaches that those are wrong...
I don't recall it ever denouncing slavery.

It contains explicit instructions for women to obey men, and says specifically that no woman should have authority over man.

God himself commands Moses and his army to murder thousands of people--Numbers 31 describes over 32,000 virgin women taken captive. Doesn't that leave you to wonder how many non-virgins there were that were slaughtered? How many men were slaughtered in these vicious raids upon the Midianites? Don't give me any of that "they were evil" shit. An atrocity is an atrocity.

And last I checked, Passover wasn't looked down upon or condemned by the church. Surely more than a few children's lives were taken that fateful day by the Angel of Death.

[xbolt]

I don't recall it ever denouncing slavery.

It contains explicit instructions for women to obey men, and says specifically that no woman should have authority over man.

God himself commands Moses and his army to murder thousands of people--Numbers 31 describes over 32,000 virgin women taken captive. Doesn't that leave you to wonder how many non-virgins there were that were slaughtered? How many men were slaughtered in these vicious raids upon the Midianites? Don't give me any of that "they were evil" shit. An atrocity is an atrocity.

And last I checked, Passover wasn't looked down upon or condemned by the church. Surely more than a few children's lives were taken that fateful day by the Angel of Death.
*Tilts head* Hmm... Who can understand the mind of God? Not me, that's for sure.

[Nomad]

Gee, I thought that you said your beliefs made sense. ^_____________________^

[edit]
I don't know yet exactly into which category my existence falls, but I do believe that Jesus died on that cross for my sins. May be that some of the Bible's parts are a bit of storytelling, but I think the purpose of it is to get the message across that we've got options besides that of dying without hope.

I'm curious, and this is my own curiosity--not some kind of debate tactic. The concept of "God" sending down his own son/himself incarnated as a mortal, and delivering mankind from sin by being murdered makes absolutely no sense to me. What exactly does "Jesus dying for our sins" mean? That pretty much says, "If you kill me, I will forgive you for those other things you have done."

Why couldn't "God" have just forgiven us for something that we aren't even at fault for? That's like saying, "I will forgive you for the way I created you."

[Johanbeyl]

I'm curious, and this is my own curiosity--not some kind of debate tactic. The concept of "God" sending down his own son/himself incarnated as a mortal, and delivering mankind from sin by being murdered makes absolutely no sense to me. What exactly does "Jesus dying for our sins" mean? Why couldn't "God" have just forgiven us for something that we aren't even at fault for? I mean, seriously, I didn't choose my ancestors, and if there actually was an Adam and Eve, It's not my damned fault they were disobedient.

I don't know why things happenend the way they did. Are you a father? Can you think of any bigger sacrifice than offering up your only child on behalf of people who don't give a shit? By becoming one of us, He became approachable, unlike the wrathful god in the old testament.

As for Adam and Eve, I don't know, except that any man/woman will suffer for their sins eventually. And I don't mean that in a religious way. Even if you're an atheist, and you're not living the life you're supposed to, it will eventually catch up with you. May be in the form of regret, guilt, being shunned by your peers etc. I've heard the stories of old men on their death beds, screaming for one more chance to make things right. What's that about anyway? If religion can cause one to go to one's death in peace, then I say "Yay" to it.

Edit - fixed some typos.

[Nomad]

If I were a father, I sure as well wouldn't forgive anyone's sins for murdering my child.

[Johanbeyl]

Ditto. But I guess that the difference between us and Him.

[Aliotroph?]

I thought the point was he forgave the sins of the Christians, who weren't the ones murdering Jesus.

And I submit that the concept of perfect is not definable in such an absolute way. The only people who would think God is perfect would be the fools who were so damn scared of him they wouldn't dare think otherwise.

[FATAL]

http://jjrowland.com/comics/20070523.png

[Aliotroph?]

LOL

Fatal, where'd your sig come from?

[FATAL]

Here: http://xkcd.com/c180.html
Some of these are outrageously funny, some are just a bit silly

[xbolt]

I thought the point was he forgave the sins of the Christians, who weren't the ones murdering Jesus.
No... Anyone who has ever sinned is guilty. That includes me and you.

[rustyslacker]

No... Anyone who has ever sinned is guilty. That includes me and you.
But didn't Jesus die to absolve us?

[xbolt]

But didn't Jesus die to absolve us?
Yes. But only those that believe that He did so are forgiven.

[Nomad]

Then what Aliotroph? said was correct--only the Christians are forgiven. *rolleyes*

Get your story straight. ;P

[blood imp]

Life could not have arisen without a designer behind it. It's simply not possible.
force that added the final ingredient to make life possible at all.
ZOMG! What is with people and thinking that "Life is NOT POSSIBLE without a designer/cook?! GAAAH!!!
*Tilts head* Hmm... Who can understand the mind of God? Not me, that's for sure.
Why? WHY? WHY?! Why do people enjoy believing that they are inferior? I'm almost crying (really).
I don't recall it ever denouncing slavery.

It contains explicit instructions for women to obey men, and says specifically that no woman should have authority over man.

God himself commands Moses and his army to murder thousands of people--Numbers 31 describes over 32,000 virgin women taken captive. Doesn't that leave you to wonder how many non-virgins there were that were slaughtered? How many men were slaughtered in these vicious raids upon the Midianites? Don't give me any of that "they were evil" shit. An atrocity is an atrocity.
OWNED!

[rustyslacker]

*Tilts head* Hmm... Who can understand the mind of God? Not me, that's for sure.
That's just the sound of you losing. Logical failure again.

[Johanbeyl]

Of course there has to be a designer. If you subscribe to the big bang theory, please explain how that could have happened out of thin nothingness without intervention. Of course that brings up the question - where did God come from? To that I have no answer. Since I've been a kid I always said that that'll be the question I'd like to ask Him one day. What question would you ask? The concept of eternity baffles me.

If I may, I'm curious. Which of the self-confessed atheists in here were at some time in their life, religious, but are now an atheist? If any, why?

[+Acyclitor+]

If I may, I'm curious. Which of the self-confessed atheists in here were at some time in their life, religious, but are now an atheist? If any, why?I'm the opposite of that. basically I was never religious and started to think of such things about when I was a young teen, and I became an atheist. However, after years of learning about ancient pagan religions, the occult, and the massive symbolic assault against individualistic thought and women Christians have strewn across their reign, I began to think in new ways and opened my "third eye." atheism and strict adherence to scientific method and "logic" are so damn boring and short sited I had to expand my soul in other directions and experience other realities.

through all this I have felt Christianity+Judaism+Islam are completely harmful to both human intellect and spirit. to be totally frank, I would very much enjoy to see them completely obliterated - the only remnant of their existence being a bad memory of dark times when insane self-depraving nihilism ruled.

now if I may enter a new branch to the conversation: the only religion dumber than Christianity - Scientology! I really can't take this fucked up "religion" as anything but a ridiculous scam. I don't think there are any scientists in the church of Scientology lol

[rustyslacker]

now if I may enter a new branch to the conversation: the only religion dumber than Christianity - Scientology! I really can't take this fucked up "religion" as anything but a ridiculous scam. I don't think there are any scientists in the church of Scientology lol
Honestly I can't understand how people digest that shit. The way that makes most sense to me is that it's a scam--I can easily picture the "founders" of this "religion" sitting in a basement somewhere exchanging high-fives and yelling "YES! We got TOM CRUISE!" :p

But, it's really not much more riduculous than Christianity. *ba-dum-psh!*
If I may, I'm curious. Which of the self-confessed atheists in here were at some time in their life, religious, but are now an atheist? If any, why?
I was sort of theist at one point. I hoped that God would help me or talk to me or at least do SOMETHING. I tried to believe and nothing changed. So I rejected God as a phony and embraced atheism, but then I took a small step back and now I hold some agnostic views as well.

[Johanbeyl]

Alright. I'd like your views on the idea behind Christianity. +Acyclitor+, you said that Christianity had a "massive symbolic assault against individualistic thought and women". Completely right. But what comes to my mind is that those ideas and ideals were put forth by a few old, senile quacks. It's unfortunate. The belief in Christ and following in his footsteps is about caring for each other, loving each other and finding common ground with your neighbour. I cannot see anything wrong with that, nor for that matter, anything wrong with any religion that follows those principles. Thoughts?

Rustyslacker, what has changed since you've made your decision? Have you found your answers elsewhere?

:) Damn, I sound like a psychologist.

[Aliotroph?]

Of course there has to be a designer. If you subscribe to the big bang theory, please explain how that could have happened out of thin nothingness without intervention. Of course that brings up the question - where did God come from? To that I have no answer. Since I've been a kid I always said that that'll be the question I'd like to ask Him one day. What question would you ask? The concept of eternity baffles me.

And this is exactly where this no reason for there to be a designer. You don't simplify the problem at all here by adding one in. The Big Bang theory doesn't say anything about where it came from. It can't. You'll have quite a few scientists say God did it but they won't be able to tell you why or how this is. Doesn't matter because if God did it you can't explain Him anyway.

[blood imp]

Of course there has to be a designer. If you subscribe to the big bang theory, please explain how that could have happened out of thin nothingness without intervention.
Please explain to me how God is real. I know you said that you have no answer to that, so lets bring up another point (one which was probably brought up several times):
Why is it that if there is no explanation for God, that's okay, because "no body understands his wisdom". Yet, if their is no explanation for any logical or scientific theory, it must be wrong? I really wanna hear/read the answer. Please don't sidestep this and bring out another point. I want to know the answer to that question.

[Johanbeyl]

blood imp - I guess that's where faith comes in. It may sound like the easy way out, but I do NOT have another answer for you. I'm not schooled in religion and cannot even give you an educated guess about what is real and what is not. I just know that God fills the emptiness in me, the yearning for hope, soppy and melodramatic as that may sound. I don't think we'd be capable of understanding God, even if we had 100% use of our brains. The concept is beyond us, because, after all, He is God. People that say that scientific theory or explanations are wrong when they ( the theories ) fail and then say that scientist should blindly believe, should realise that science has a duty to find answers and it might take considerable time ( and hiccups along the way ) to get there. There is no reason to shun scientists or atheist because they question the relevance of God. The things in this world, that are unexplainable by science, I will take on faith.

I believe that each of will eventually get to a point in our lives where we decide where to draw the fine line between science and faith. Science cannot explain everything and nor can faith be a substitute for cold hard fact. The closest we can come to understanding ourselves and these lives of ours is to reach a certain balance - that gray inbetween white and black.

Go check out http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html - I hate pointing you to this, because I'd rather give my own opinions, but maybe there's a hint of truth in it.

Aliotroph? - I don't think the problem can become more complex than it already is :)
I agree that adding an intelligent design aspect to the universe does make it infinitely more complex, but what other option is there? Even if they build a 100km radius space-scope and can see to the beginning of time ( there is definitely a beginning ), what are scientist going to say about what happenend in the 10 secs before the big-bang. I'll bet that they'll probably refer the question to religious figures. EDIT - and then we're back at square one again :)

[Nomad]

If I may, I'm curious. Which of the self-confessed atheists in here were at some time in their life, religious, but are now an atheist? If any, why?

Warning: Long Post Ahead ;)

I grew up in a Lutheran family, though that's mostly on my mother's side. Two of my uncles are pastors, and my great uncle is a reverend (just retired this year). My father's side of the family isn't very outwardly religious at all, though, but I grew up mostly with my mother.

The main problem I have with religions that have a personal god (or gods) is how selfish the followers are. Seriously--and I've been there myself. I've prayed for god to help me through hard times when I was younger, to no avail of course. But I've come to realize how selfish that is--why should "god" help me when there are a lot of people out there that need some kind of divine help than I do. It drives me nuts when I think about how many of these ignorant fools pray to god to help them find their car keys, or get good marks on a test, or get that cute girl to go to prom with them, when there are millions of starving people in Africa and South America, and even in our own countries that need help a lot more.

And aside from that, the likelihood for prayer to have any actual effect on the world is a joke anyway. If prayer actually worked, then a worldwide mass could pray for disease to end and it would happen. If prayer actually worked, amputees could suddenly regenerate limbs. But the cold, hard truth is that it won't. If Billy and Robby each pray for Suzy to agree to go to prom with one of them or the other, what does it mean when Suzy says yes to one of them? God helped Robby, but denied Billy--God works in mysterious ways? No, because Suzy knows that Billy is a total scumbag and cheated on Carol, and made her own damned decision without needing any kind of "divine inspiration" because she's not an idiot.

Another thing that pisses me off is "Thank God!" People put the achievements of Man onto the shoulders of a nonexistent being. The impressive feats that we have achieved are casually tossed aside as "gifts" to us. Never mind the countless hours, days, months, years, decades, centuries, and millenia that we have spent learning and progressing our knowledge to get where we are today. "God" did not get us this far--WE did.

Oh, and I completely forgot to mention the self-centered and ignorant idea that "My god is THE god" that EVERY religion has. Logic tells us that not all of them can be correct in that assumption, and I hate to tell you, but the number of followers doesn't make the odds any higher that they are correct.

And finally, it irks me that acts of evil are credited to another inhuman source--the devil. I'd like to quote the Physicist Steven Weinberg here: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

If you ask me, killing is evil no matter what your cause. Bombing an abortion clinic, beating a homosexual to death, or strapping bombs to your chest to blow up jews because your god says those things are evil are just as atrocious of acts as any other murder that is not the product of "divine inspiration." And I don't need the bible or any other "holy book" to tell me that. It should be common sense.

That said, to say I'm completely 100% atheist would be untrue. I am atheist towards all personal gods, that is, any god or gods that played a personal role in the creation of the universe and man, and have a personal interest in the happenings of our people--which include, but aren't limited to the Abrahamic god of Judaism/Christianity/Islam, Lord Brahma and the other Hindu sub-deities, Zeus and Jupiter and all the other Greek/Roman gods, Odin and the Norse gods, Mani and all the Germanic gods, and I could go on.

However, as mentioned before, that does not include the idea of pantheism, nor does it include a deist god. I'll cite Richard Dawkins' description of these two, because I think it is pretty accurate:

A deist [like theists] believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter, and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs. Pantheists don't believe in a a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer Prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricious miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather than the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism

Then, of course, you have the idea of agnosticism. I am atheist towards Personal Gods. I am agnostic towards a deist god. But don't let that fool you, as there are two types of agnosticism. There is the school of thought that man can't understand or discover the existence of a god, but there is the school of thought that some day we can, but at the moment do not have sufficient resources to come to any conclusion about it. I am, of course, of the latter school of thought about a deist god. While I think it's unlikely, I'm not foolish enough to make a conclusion like that with no evidence.

But we've been around for somewhere around 20,000 years, and as far as we have come in the last century is plenty of indication that we aren't slowing down any time soon. I believe we will uncover the secrets of the universe, including whatever got us here--be it god, or just plain dumb luck. ;)

By the way, I'm sure it sounds scary, but I encourage everyone--and I mean EVERYONE, whether religious, or atheist, or agnostic, or whatever--to read Dawkins' The God Delusion. It's a very enlightening read regardless of your beliefs as is.

now if I may enter a new branch to the conversation: the only religion dumber than Christianity - Scientology! I really can't take this fucked up "religion" as anything but a ridiculous scam. I don't think there are any scientists in the church of Scientology lol

Scientology is a capitalist JOKE. Leave it to a science-fiction author to create a religion. Most people fail to realize that this is the guy who wrote Battlefield Earth. L. Ron Hubbard is nothing but a wolf in shepherds clothing, capitalizing on Sheeple's stupidity.

[blood imp]

Sorry Nomad, I didn't even read your post yet, as you made it while I was typing.

Ah, well, I like much prefer the idea of God "filling in the emptiness", and not being substitute for fact than the "OMFG! GOD IS ALL!!!1!!!!111!" crap. Good job on that. As for the link, I don't know. I mean, they do give a not-half-bad argument with some reason behind it, but still...
Just like you don't understand God's ways, or at least I think you don't, judging by a few people I know, I don't understand how life could have started without him. However, my disliking of the concept of God greatly outweighs my not-100%-sure-ness of evolution and the like. And I do have my own theories, and there are those of others. Plus there is evidence. Some of it may be a little hole-filled, but it's more evidence than of God.

Going back to the link, I don't like the way it said atheist. It seemed like the writer was calling us a sect or religion ourselves. It also compares in black and white, as if Atheism and the Bible were the only two "parties".

[Aliotroph?]

Scientology would be funny if it didn't have so many followers damaging society.

And no, science will probably never figure out what happened 10 seconds before the Big Bang. That's ok. I can live just fine in a somewhat inexplicable universe with no point behind it.

[blood imp]

A deist [like theists] believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter, and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs. Pantheists don't believe in a a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer Prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricious miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather than the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism
The idea of a God who made stuff, and further doesn't care about it is better. I don't want some perv looking at my every move :D
Although I remain the same: God isn't real. All your queer stories are false. We are alone (god-wise, not alien-wise). You are wasting precious seconds of your life praying for things instead of trying to make them happen. All your "morals" are COMMON SENSE!
I don't have things against those who believe individually. I dislike religion as a whole. Although some individuals, such as fanatics, are rather evil (remember the woman from "ThE mAgIcAl WoRlD oF cHriStIaNitY" thread?).
Scientology = monkey crap (mmm... toasty!)

[Aliotroph?]

And I contend that barring some pretty intense revelations about physics we're going to keep our de-facto aloneness alien-wise too. :p

[Johanbeyl]

Nomad, do you really believe that it could've been just blind luck that brought us into creation? That concept is alien to me.

You do raise a valid points. How would you ever convince someone to believe otherwise if their prayers were never answered? Maybe some of them were answered? But that would be a weak answer. Maybe God had a different path laid out for you from what you wanted? If those prayers we're answered back then, would you be the person you were today, and would you be happy with it. I know it's endless-loop question, because we could never know how things would have turned out. But that's the beauty of it , we don't know and therefor we accept and trust, otherwise we'd go crazy. Of course that brings up the question about those poor souls all over the wolrd that are suffering horribly everyday. What about them? I do not have an answer. Maybe this will shed some light on it from a Christian perspective - http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/sufferng.htm . I wish I had answers to these issues you raise, but alas, I am still learning as I go.

[Nomad]

I don't intend to be rude, but I've read plenty on the "Christian view of Suffering," like the book The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel. The argument is that suffering is caused by free will, and man's free choice to cause suffering by succumbing to Satan. Or, alternatively, "You can never know true joy without experiencing suffering" which applies whether there's a god or not.

While I can definitely see how poor choices in the past can affect the affluence of societies, causing the devastating poverty seen in Africa and South America.

However, what about suffering caused by disease and genetic defects? Free will has very little, if any bearing on the occurrence of siamese twins, and especially the most severe case called Twinning; when twins develop one inside the other, often killing both. Human free will has little, if any bearing on whether someone gets cancer and dies a painful death (barring certain ones like lung cancer caused by smoking :P ). These things, if you are correct, are put into place either directly, or indirectly through creating Satan, by God. I cannot conceive of any omnibenevolent being that would do such a thing.

[blood imp]

On the subject of how Eve sinned and ate her apple, which was reminded to me by the article, well. First of all, the Bible is basically stating that knowledge is a sin, and we shouldn't know anything. She was offered the Apple of Knowledge. Hmm... thoughts anyone (except for the person who already mentioned this)?
Second, why should all of humanity be punished for an individual's sin? If that is God's way of teaching us that sin is bad, then wow. The only thing we do to "sinners" is punish them in cruel ways, sometimes even death, making us sinners all the more.
Third, why exactly was it the woman that ate the apple and sinned? Why of course! Religion is sexist!
Fourth, what is with religious people and homosexuals? They claim it's unnatural. They say these "fags" are going to Hell. Why the Hell should you go to Hell because of sexual preference? It's really sad.
Fifth, if a human lives in isolation (now where did I get this idea?), with no idea about religion, no idea about Christ and God and all that jazz, would he go to Hell? What if after death, he does not accept Christ as his savior because he thinks he's some lunatic from another world? Should he go to Hell?

I know I kind of went away from the points recently made, but still. Thoughts?

[Nomad]

Nomad, do you really believe that it could've been just blind luck that brought us into creation? That concept is alien to me.

I forgot to touch on this. My answer is both yes and no.

Regardless of if there is a god, we are here, right here, right now. That is something we can agree on, correct1? I strongly urge you to research the concept of the Anthropic Principle. However unlikely our current situation is--that is, a planet that is somewhat friendly to life, the seed of life beginning, and everything else that contributed to what we are now--however unlikely it is, it obviously is likely by the very evidence that we are here.

Put into perspective, say that the chance for life developing on a planet (and I only mean life in the most simple form that we know--single celled organisms that reproduce or replecate in one form or another, react to stimuli, etc.) is one billion to one (1,000,000,000:1).

Now let's say that there are roughly a billion stars in a galaxy (which is rather conservative; the milky way has several billion known stars)--but there are billions of galaxies in the universe! Even with just one billion galaxies, with a billion stars in each galaxy--a probability of a billion to one means that there are still at least a billion star systems with a planet fit for life in the universe.

Who knows how many of them may have developed more advanced life?

Of course, we have no real evidence of life on other planets (short of long dead organisms found in Mars rock), but we also don't know what exactly the factors that contribute to the beginning of life are either. There have been organisms found living in all sorts of extreme conditions on Earth; in volcanoes, even in the frigid conditions of Antarctica. It is entirely possible that the factors that create life are a pretty wide, and life could be a lot more prevalent than we think.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that we will never come across any other advanced lifeform as long as our race exists. We could probably travel the galaxy and never meet anyone else. But that hardly means that other life doesn't exist. It would take tens of thousands of years to even come close to visiting the closest galaxy to ours. With the billions upon billions of galaxies out there, I have absolutely no doubt that we are not the only ones out there.

So I believe in aliens? Sure. I think that studying astronomy is the most inspiring thing there is (and I would probably go into it if I were more mathematically inclined). Until you realize Just how tiny and insignificant we are (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M) (A narration of Carl Sagan's famous "Pale Blue Dot" excerpt), it's easy to arrogantly and childishly assert that we are "special" in some way. We're but a tiny gnat on the windshield of the history of the universe.

[xbolt]

I really stirred up the hornet's nest, didn't I? ;)

Anyhow, Johanbeyl seems to be doing a better job than me in arguing, so I'll quietly slip out...

But before I go, let me just say that I hope you guys will see the truth.

[Nomad]

But before I go, let me just say that I hope you guys will see the truth.

Likewise. ;)

[blood imp]

This isn't the first time (about stirring the hornet's nest). Remember your avalanche post on the Death Thread?

What happens when you die? This is what.

Either:
A: You accepted Christ in this life, and you live in Heaven forever.
or
B: You do not accept Christ, and you burn in hell forever.


You do not simply blip out, as Nomad says.
That started an argument around 5 times bigger than this one.

Anyhow, Johanbeyl seems to be doing a better job than me in arguing, so I'll quietly slip out...

But before I go, let me just say that I hope you guys will see the truth.
Don't you dare! The conversation is so much more interesting and funny with you around. Please.
Oh yes, I'm afraid I will never "realize the truth". Unless the Jee-Man or God comes and introduces himself, I will not succumb to lies.

Nomad's Post
QFT
I think there is life in the UNIVERSE besides us. Say that every [Earth] year or so in the universe there is one chance for life. In a 1,000,000,000:1 chance, we'd have at least 13-14 lives. But if you look at the fact that there are chances all the time (chemical reactions), there is a REALLY BIG CHANCE. And if you look at it the way of Nomad, let's see. Currently, astronomers believe there are at least 70 sextillion (70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars in the universe. The Milky Way itself has 300 billion. Now, let's say 1 in 1 billion stars has planets. That's 7 x 10^13 stars with planets. Let's say each star system contains 5 planets, as an average. 1 in 1 billion of that gives us 3.5 x 10^5 (350,000) systems. If it's just 1 in a billion, then we have 350,000,000,000,000 systems. Pretty small chance, eh? That's mare than 1,000 Milky Ways worth of life. Hehehe!

[+Acyclitor+]

The belief in Christ and following in his footsteps is about caring for each other, loving each other and finding common ground with your neighbour. I cannot see anything wrong with that, nor for that matter, anything wrong with any religion that follows those principles. Thoughts?well, as the old saying goes "actions speak louder than words." Christians may preach these values (but hell, 90% of religions across the world have preached these same values so its not like these morals have any specific heritage from Christianity), but as a whole they have again and again throughout history acted with selfishness and blood lust - and furthermore whisked away their hypocrisy and cruelty with nihilistic notions of an unknowable eternal mind making fates what they are.

[Nomad]

I should like to add that I find it amusing that although the Barbarians To The North we all know from tales of the dark ages may have been violent as pagans, but the real violence didn't begin until they started killing in the name of Christ. :D

[Jethro]

If I may, I'm curious. Which of the self-confessed atheists in here were at some time in their life, religious, but are now an atheist? If any, why?
Me! Over here! *hello*
I'm now atheist? Because I believed the animorphs series. My parents then failed to explain the difference between that and the bible. They're both books with morals, right? The only difference was that animorphs made more sense scientifically, then the bible. (Ouch) My train of thought went: Wait, if this makes more sense then the bible, and this is false, then anything that makes equal or less scientific sense must also be false! Categories include: TV shows, comic books, the comics, bible, and a buncha other stuff, like videogames.
*roflmao* Believing in the animorphs

[Nomad]

I have to say that's a ridiculous reason myself, but I'm not going to shoot at my own team. :P

[blood imp]

Yes, loosing faith because you believe in the Animorphs is a bit... er... odd. Well, we all have different responses and actions to different things.

[JohnnyRancid]

fuck this debate.

[Nomad]

I'm sure that's how Jesus would react too. [/sarcasm]

[+Acyclitor+]

I feel this thread is being undercut by sarcastic humor and a few immature individuals, lets try to move on.

[Jethro]

I feel this thread is being undercut by sarcastic humor and a few immature individuals, lets try to move on.
If I fall under that category, I'll stfu. *ugh*
Yes, loosing faith because you believe in the Animorphs is a bit... er... odd. Well, we all have different responses and actions to different things.

BelieveD And yes, that's about as odd as it gets.

I have to say that's a ridiculous reason myself, but I'm not going to shoot at my own team. :P

Unlike in doom co-op... Oh! Burn'd!

I'll stuhfoo now.

[Nomad]

Unlike in doom co-op... Oh! Burn'd!

And Quake too. I can't help it if I suck at games. Why do you think I started my clan? I truly do Suck At Games. :P

[Johanbeyl]

As soon as I get a a chance I will look up animorphs.

As for aliens, I also believe they're out there - meh, that sounds lame. I believe that the possibility for extra terrestrial life outweighs the odds against it. Aha! you might say, God doesn't fit into this picture. I disagree. I believe that God created everything. But maybe we should not discuss aliens for now. Cause then questions would pop up like "Did Jesus also visit the aliens?" - and that just makes my head spin.

It's wrong to say that all Christians are selfish and full of bloodlust because of the actions of a select few. Subscribing to the good, in any religion, cannot be bad. Is there any redeeming values in Christianity? What good has Christianity brought to this world? I'll let you tell me.

Nomad, if you had a child that eventually grew up and murdered 10 people, would that make you evil? I cannot accept the notion that God is evil because he made Satan. I think God's biggest gift to us, is choice. And possibly God has distanced himself from us for a reason, to give us time to make our choices. Each person faces certain tests during their lifetime, you might have to choose to change jobs, divorce your wife, kill someone, help your brother etc. Those choices in themselves don't mean much, but the motivation behind them, I believe, will me the measure stick we will be judged on. Thus, if a person suffers horribly in the middle of an African desert due to military conflict or disease, it changes him, prepares him to submit his soul to God. Please, don't call me a hypocrite, but shouldn't we ( and we will never ) envy them in a way. Their lives are simply about getting from one day to the next. In that uncluttered silence of their lives, they would probably hear God's voice above all else. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that most of these people that suffer horribly are more religious than most others. God is setting the scene for them to choose. They've still got the option to do what they want, but as God wants us as his children, he creates the scene for people to hear his voice, to call upon Him.

I cannot order the book you mentioned earlier right now, any idea if an online version is available? Or I'll just research the Anthropic Principle when I get time.

Alright. It's hard to keep up with the discussion, although I find it invigorating.

xbolt, please don't discontinue the discussion. Your input is valuable. I'm merely saying what I think and would appreciate your opinions as well.

[Nomad]

It's wrong to say that all Christians are selfish and full of bloodlust because of the actions of a select few. Subscribing to the good, in any religion, cannot be bad. Is there any redeeming values in Christianity? What good has Christianity brought to this world? I'll let you tell me.

I can't fathom anything that couldn't have come around without it.

Nomad, if you had a child that eventually grew up and murdered 10 people, would that make you evil? I cannot accept the notion that God is evil because he made Satan.

The fallible part of this argument is that God is omniscient. God created Satan knowing exactly what he/she/it (use whichever you like since the angels were neuts) would do. I could not possibly know that my child would kill anyone. The only way it would make me evil is if I encouraged my child to do it.

Forgive me for completely ignoring the rest of your post, but I'd like to take the discussion in a different direction. I'd like to ask why you are so confident that your religion is the "true word"? And this goes to any other theists here.

Most all religions maintain that their beliefs are the true word, and that all others are false. How can this be? Obviously they can't all be right.

Also, consider for a moment the conditions where you have grown up. If you grew up in the middle east, it is highly likely that you would be Jewish or Muslim instead of whatever Christian beliefs you maintain. Alternatively, if you grew up in India, it is likely that you would be Hindi; Japan you would likely be Buddhist or follow the shinto spirituality.

And in each case, don't you think that it is likely that you would maintain the same confidence about your religion as you do with your religion now?

Just some things that I think are important to ask yourself when talking about "choice".

[+Acyclitor+]

It's wrong to say that all Christians are selfish and full of bloodlust because of the actions of a select few. Subscribing to the good, in any religion, cannot be bad. Is there any redeeming values in Christianity? What good has Christianity brought to this world? I'll let you tell me.you can hardly claim that atrocities committed by the church were the work of a few bad apples when they continue to happen throughout history on a near-constant basis. same thing happens today, except now they pen laws instead of slit throats. as far as redeeming values and what good Christianity has brought to the world, I must say overall there are none to my mind.

[Johanbeyl]

I agree with you on the aspect of where you come from would probably determine your religion. I am not saying that Christianity is the only correct religion. It's the correct one for me, due to my circumstances and what I feel. Maybe we should move away from Christianity vs Atheism? It would be better to discuss believers vs non-believers don't you think? As a Christian I believe what I do due to my experiences in the religion. Same goes for a Buddhist. I guess most religions like to think that they're the right one, but it doesn't work like that. I'm trying not to be too general, but I believe that everyone actually prays to the same God, although his glory is being presented differently in different religions. And as a Christian I believe that Jesus is part of the equation. The strict rules and guidelines set down by most religious leaders are in my opinion a way of trying to force their hand on people. I don't go to church, which Christians are supposed to do, but I do speak to God and I find his answers all around me. That might seem shallow to some people, but if you look around you, you cannot miss the glory of God. The little things that make a difference.

Maybe then I'm not a Christian, but something else. I've taken what I feel is good from Christianity ( insert whatever religion here ) and molded it into something that I find worthy to spend my time on.

As for the bad things the church has been doing, it is not the will of God for people to corrupt the image of Him. Those are purely human sins and NOT the work of God. Because a few Arab terrorist blew up the twin towers, should be say that all Arabs are terrorists? May be a bad example, but you get the drift.

You guys seem to think I'm all for Christianity and against everything else. That is not the case. If people are happy with their spiritual side or the lack thereof, then fine. As long as they are happy. I'm not judging anyone except myself by what I need. Does it make me a weakling to want to believe that God exists and that he played a role in the creation? If it's the case and I'm labeled as a nitwit or something similar, so be it. I am happy with who I am. Are you?

[blood imp]

I am not saying that Christianity is the only correct religion. It's the correct one for me, due to my circumstances and what I feel.
Ah, well at least your not one of them. *thumbs*

Maybe we should move away from Christianity vs Atheism? It would be better to discuss believers vs non-believers don't you think?
This would be much easier if there were people here from other religions (apart from +Acyclitator+). But, with the exception of him, nobody is claiming anything but Chrisitianity, or at least parts of it.

Because a few Arab terrorist blew up the twin towers, should be say that all Arabs are terrorists? May be a bad example, but you get the drift.
Yes, you've got a point there. All that some people do is make their religion look bad. I saw on television an interview with some self-proclaimed racists. They were actually pretty young; 15-18 I think. There was an Arab girl there, and here's a quote from a whitey: "She is Al-Qaeda. She will kill me!". Indeed, these individuals and groups are very bad. The only thing they do is make their God (in this case Allah) look bad. They make him a bloodthirsty asshole. Really not so good.

Does it make me a weakling to want to believe that God exists and that he played a role in the creation?
Not exactly. I find it simply denounces humanity, but doesn't exactly make you a weakling. Although, on another board, some idiot was pointing out that religios folk are "at least manly enough to admit we're not the rulers of everything". He is a douche bag, so whatever. However, saying that you're manly because you're not the master of everything has two small problems:
One: Non-believers do not put themselves in the center of everything. In fact, at the beggining, the Christians were the ones who believed in a Geocentral system, and resented the idea of a Heliocentral system. We (at least myself) believe in extra-terrestial life, and in things much more powerful than us. Also, if we were the masters of everything, we could bend matter to whatever form we want, couldn't we?
Two: Saying you're not the master of everything does not make you manly. When those capable of leading simply don't want to do it, we call that a lack of leadership (I'm not pointing at you, just the guy). A lack of leadership certainly does not make you manly. Would you call a peasent who praises his lord and mutturs to himself "at least I admit I'm not master" manly?
In any case, that was off my point to you, so you can ignore it if you want (although by the time you read this you have probably read the other thing, too). So no, you are not a weakling, or at least I don't think you are.

I am happy with who I am. Are you?
I can't say I'm not. Sure, I've done some not-that-good things in the past (although not really bad or evil, just some things I'm, not too proud of). But really, I'm happy with myself. I've done some good things (still do them). I'm relatively smart. So yes, I'm happy with my being.

[Pieter Enis]

The magnetic force is actually due to the finite speed (the speed of light) of a disturbance of the electric field which gives rise to forces that appear to be acting along a line at right angles to the charges.
I got it! Quite simply put, they're stating that magnetism is actually an electricity vacuüm created by a sudden 'hiccup' in the electric field.
The reason why the forces are at a right angle, I'm not sure of, but I would claim that the lines right next to the aforementioned hiccup are still working and they prevent any other direction of force.

There :F

About aliens, it could be that we're their experiment, and that Jesus was a test to see if we were ready to welcome our creators.

Johanbeyl also replied to people believing in UFO's with something along the lines of "WTF?! Silly people! Every1 knows UFO's don't exist!"
The same reaction is applicable to your believing in God by a believer in science.

Another one: Having faith in science mostly follows from reading up on the proof of one of their theories. Which is also the reason why so many theories are, at first, wrong. Theories are to be debated about and, in the end, we should have one we can accept. For the time being, later on our grand-grand-...-grandchildren might laugh at our stupidity. Any how, if no one agrees upon the proof provided, the quak is either put to work to find better proof or think up another theory or he's shoved out as a result of his many failed theories.

Other people already stated the thing about other life being possible.

I'll go back to lurking for a while now, 'till I remember things left unreplied or something like that. *wave*

[blood imp]

About aliens, it could be that we're their experiment, and that Jesus was a test to see if we were ready to welcome our creators.
Haha! Brilliant!

[+Acyclitor+]

As for the bad things the church has been doing, it is not the will of God for people to corrupt the image of Him. Those are purely human sins and NOT the work of God. Because a few Arab terrorist blew up the twin towers, should be say that all Arabs are terrorists? May be a bad example, but you get the drift.you have a point. my perspective though is that Christianity was invented by these types of people and their god was a fabrication for there own ends, so I discount "his will." to get back to a monotheist religion I do grant some credibility to you have to go back to the original Jews, with the Sephiroth. after all, its from there that comes one of the biggest branches of the Occult - Kabbalah. the belief in the Sephiroth is yet another way of worshiping the Galaxy we live in as god or as some sort of divine thing. you can see this repeated in Norse as the world tree Yggdrasil, and in Mayan as the cosmic tree Hunab Ku. Mount Olympus could be seen the same way, but thats debatable.

Does it make me a weakling to want to believe that God exists and that he played a role in the creation?I certainly don't think so. I do believe in evolution - there seems to be too much evidence to deny it as a whole, but I do think creation was influenced. Ambiogenesis just seems far too unlikely too me. I think our (human) evolution was also influenced again, as we appeared in the evolutionary equivalent of a millisecond.

[blood imp]

the belief in the Sephiroth is yet another way of worshiping the Galaxy we live in as god or as some sort of divine thing. you can see this repeated in Norse as the world tree Yggdrasil, and in Mayan as the cosmic tree Hunab Ku. Mount Olympus could be seen the same way, but thats debatable.
The Galaxy, Trees, and a Mountain. Like the Egyptians, these think of nature as God (Ra was basically te Sun).
Although Mount Olympus was more of a "home of the gods", not necessarly a god or source of energy and life.

Sorry to ignore your part about evolution, but I don't really have a reply.

[+Acyclitor+]

indeed, the Olympian home of the Gods wasn't exactly like Yggdrasil or Hunab Ku, but it has been my interpretation that all these things represent the galaxy. I started to formulate this idea after reading this (http://www.aztlan.net/rumblings_center_galaxy.htm) article some time ago. its not a highly analytical dissemination of mythology or science or anything, but it planted the idea for me. I also recall reading something about the Dogon religion that involved 9 spiritual star systems, of which our sun is one. it instantly reminded me of the nine worlds of the Norse religion. just wish I could remember where I read that.

[Johanbeyl]

Johanbeyl also replied to people believing in UFO's with something along the lines of "WTF?! Silly people! Every1 knows UFO's don't exist!"


Please sir, where'd I say that? I'd like you to show me where. I find it disturbing that someone puts words into my mouth. Alas, if I did say that, I would ask forgiveness, otherwise be ready to be *burn*

As for the the other guys. I'm pleasantly suprised by your reactions on my fear of being called an idiot for saying I believe. Thank you. You are open minded indeed. *grin*

[Kristian]

Of course UFOs exist. By definition, any object flying around in the sky that cannot be positively identified (say, as "a Cessna 172" or "a condor", simply because nobody could quite see what it was) is an "unidentified flying object", or UFO.

Whether or not UFOs of extraterrestrial origin exist is a wholly different matter. :-)

[Pieter Enis]

.. UFO people see flying saucers ..

UFO's are not real?
There. Reading it, I understand it as that you think EVERYONE knows UFO's don't exist.
Of course, you could be serious about the question mark, instead of sarcastic.

Either way, sorry if I offended you. (teh smiley of flamy doom!*sick*)

Okay, Kristian UEFO's! Unidentified Extraterrestrial Flying Object :p
Sounds a lot like Euro tho' ...

Proof for my theory about us decending from aliens!

[Johanbeyl]

*haahaa*

I was being sarcastic! There'll be no *argue* , only *bliss* .

Btw. with a name like yours, where are you from? Sound either to me from the Netherlands or possibly South Africa?

[FATAL]

Or, much more likely, the Internet.

[rustyslacker]

*crickets chirping*

[+Acyclitor+]

without XBolt spurring an actual debate there isn't anything much of anything to say.

[Jethro]

Sigh...
I felt like stirring up shit in here again. I had bible quotes and everything. Bible telling us to kill and shit,

[blood imp]

Right now I'm trying to start up some conversation, but I'm also actually a bit curious; I was wondering, what do you religious people think of other religions? What do Christians think of Allah? Or Islam folks of Brahma? I truly would like to know.

[Jethro]

Well, If we turn to the bible, The answer is we should kill them. The parable told by christ, Luke 19:27. *smirk* Morals my ASS.

[Aliotroph?]

I don't care. God in any form is a delusion created by one of the more primative parts of the human mind. Having a god in the picture doesn't solve any fundamental questions so he doesn't fit in the model.

[Jethro]

I don't care. God in any form is a delusion created by one of the more primative parts of the human mind. Having a god in the picture doesn't solve any fundamental questions so he doesn't fit in the model.
So, what you are saying is
http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07260/idemandit.jpg

[rustyslacker]

The bible is the best selling science fiction book ever made. It was written by a large cult of mentally retarded people, that had no idea how anything in the world functioned, from thousands of years ago. Sadly however idiocy has survived throughout time and many people still believe in the illogical shit spewed from page to page.

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Bible

;)

[+Acyclitor+]

God in any form is a delusion created by one of the more primative parts of the human mind. Having a god in the picture doesn't solve any fundamental questions so he doesn't fit in the model.I challenge that. I was an atheist and developed my faith after years of study, I'm not like one of those monotheist fools who uses religion as a cure-all answer to free myself from thought. my connection to the divine is a practice in thought and understanding, not a nihilistic head-in-the-sand maneuver.

primitive? maybe, any religion is a more primordial force than science. to me its just two sides of the same coin, the tactile science and the transcendental spirit. but a delusion? well that is just your opinion. you can't disprove a deity any more than you could disprove the meaning of a given symbol (anything ranging from a plus to a letter or a pentacle). just because the symbol might not mean anything to you, that doesn't mean it doesn't represent something to somebody.

[Nomad]

From what you've described, +Acyclitor+, I really don't think calling your self "pagan" is quite appropriate. Since you take the Norse gods as a more philosophical point, rather than thinking they're actual beings that run around and do stuff, you're more a pantheist than anything.

[Pieter Enis]

I'm saving that JPG.

[JohnnyRancid]

Religion was not designed to be debated. It's an idea or concept that demonstrates the possible cause of life and death, what happens before you are born, what happens after death, what changes the outcome of either, and what can be done to live and die happily. The backbone of which is called:

FAITH

Whether or not a religion is logical to you is totally your own opinion. If it seems impossible, then dont believe it. If it seems reasonable, believe in it. No one cares what the fuck you believe in, Your support for your own religion is all that matters. And I dont know of any religions in the entire world that's main goal is prove other religions wrong. What you believe in is entirely up to you, and what your mind can compute. Trying to prove whatever is illogical in other religions is absolutely useless, because all you are doing is reducing the faith of people who heed to your words. And when theres no faith, theres only confusion. So believe what you want to believe. And stop trying to prove everyone else wrong.

[+Acyclitor+]

From what you've described, +Acyclitor+, I really don't think calling your self "pagan" is quite appropriate. Since you take the Norse gods as a more philosophical point, rather than thinking they're actual beings that run around and do stuff, you're more a pantheist than anything.no I'm quite confident in my paganism. when I call my deities symbolic constructs I just say they aren't literally existent, but do exist in a medium parallel to our limited humanoid reality. I certainly do think that they "do stuff," but its not like they do or even could control our universe in the way the Hebrew god is supposed to. for example, I do suspect human origins were influenced by higher powers. also most ancient pagan religions are essentially the same, or at a bare minimum have similarities in important aspects - this leads me to also believe humanity was influenced by the same Gods in the distant past all around the world.

I'm not saying there isn't a good deal of pantheism in my faith. in a word: chaos. chaos is at the heart of every creation story. whether you call it Kaos (Greek) or Ginnungagap (Norse) or whatever else, chaos is the force of creation. its the disorder that is full of potential and possibilities. so when I look at the natural world's beauty, I am admiring the order that has sprung from chaos, its resilience, and its ability to adapt. not too unlike the big bang and evolution theories, really.

And I dont know of any religions in the entire world that's main goal is prove other religions wrong. study Islam and realize this statement is incorrect. sure there are moderates, but the Qur'an clearly says that the world should be under Islamic law.

[Jethro]

And I dont know of any religions in the entire world that's main goal is prove other religions wrong.
Christianity.
But as for those enemies of mine who were unwilling that I should become their king, bring them here, and cut them to pieces in my presence.
That's Jesus talking.
Okay, not prove them wrong. Kill them. Same thing! *snub*

[rustyslacker]

Religion was not designed to be debated.
Correct. In most organized religions, the system was designed for the followers to kill and die in the name of it.
And stop trying to prove everyone else wrong.
You have no authority to direct this discussion or tell us what we may or may not talk about.

In short, shut up.

[Aliotroph?]

Star Wars wasn't meant to be debated either. That never stopped anybody though! :D

And why is it that religious people always say atheists lack faith? Plenty of us have lots of faith -- lots of faith that there just is no higher power controlling things. It's just as illogical as faith in anything else really.

[Nomad]

I put my faith into the triumphs of man, rather than an imaginary friend.

[Nomad]

in a word: chaos. chaos is at the heart of every creation story. whether you call it Kaos (Greek) or Ginnungagap (Norse) or whatever else, chaos is the force of creation. its the disorder that is full of potential and possibilities. so when I look at the natural world's beauty, I am admiring the order that has sprung from chaos, its resilience, and its ability to adapt. not too unlike the big bang and evolution theories, really.

Not every creation story, no. Not every primitive society has any kind of creation story, nor do all even have a religion. There are a handful of South American tribals that do not have any religion to speak of, nor do they even keep any kind of history past a few generations. When asked how they got where they are, they pretty much just reply "This is how it always has been."

I imagine before the Christian conquests in Africa, Australia, and the Americas, this belief set was a lot, LOT more widespread.

I do have to say that what you describe about beings on a "higher plane of existence" is just as ridiculous as the Abrahamic, and Indian religions, and all that. I'm surprised you don't smoke pot, chomp shrooms, and listen to Tool. :P

And just because a bunch of ancient peoples believed such things is hardly good reason to believe them correct. Aside from heritage, why Norse? Why not more ancient beliefs--Sumerian? Many speculate that they were actually contacted by extraterrestrial beings, perhaps their gods are actually beings from another world? Somehow to me, that seems a lot more plausible than imaginary friends from some mind realm that can't be seen.

To quote the great Douglas Adams, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

[+Acyclitor+]

And just because a bunch of ancient peoples believed such things is hardly good reason to believe them correct.true, but I don't put stock in old religions "just because." look how much those ancient peoples had right about the universe. they described so much in religions terms that modern man has only in the last 200 or so years rediscovered and put scientific names to. I think they had it right and were way more aware of the universe than we are today in some aspects.

Aside from heritage, why Norse? Why not more ancient beliefs--Sumerian?I'm not only connected to Asa-Gods you know, they were only my first pantheon. Mayan, Sumerian, and Druidic are my secondaries.

Many speculate that they were actually contacted by extraterrestrial beings, perhaps their gods are actually beings from another world? Somehow to me, that seems a lot more plausible than imaginary friends from some mind realm that can't be seen.the idea hasn't been lost on me, especially not while studying Sumerian and Dogon theology. the thing is, if you take science at its word, traveling those kinds of distances just isn't plausible - it takes too long. even at the speed of light it would take lifetimes of travel. whats more, to even get to the speed of light you would need an infinite amount of energy. as far as anybody can figure, the only thing that can go the spread of light is energy itself. energy itself? sounds godly. if Earth was visited by extraterrestrials, they probably weren't little green men - but amazingly incomprehensible beings of pure energy that the human brain can barely fathom in concept.

EDIT: if you can find Walt Becker's book "Link," you should give it a read. its a fiction built around the idea of human interaction with aliens. its thought provoking if nothing else.

I do have to say that what you describe about beings on a "higher plane of existence" is just as ridiculous as the Abrahamic, and Indian religions, and all that.I encourage you to have the same experience that nudged me away from atheism and toward Paganism: find an experienced Pagan occultist, preferably one who works with Chaos Majick, suspend your disbelief for a little while, and partake in a ritual.

[rustyslacker]

I encourage you to have the same experience that nudged me away from atheism and toward Paganism: find an experienced Pagan occultist, preferably one who works with Chaos Majick, suspend your disbelief for a little while, and partake in a ritual.
This suggestion is hardly different than one that "nectorhead", a hardcore Catholic, gave to Nomad. He encouraged Nomad to go to church and experience communion to start on the path to theism.

[blood imp]

The only advantage I have ever seen in communion is teh money! :D

Religion was not designed to be debated. It's an idea or concept that demonstrates the possible cause of life and death, what happens before you are born, what happens after death, what changes the outcome of either, and what can be done to live and die happily. The backbone of which is called:

FAITH

Whether or not a religion is logical to you is totally your own opinion. If it seems impossible, then dont believe it. If it seems reasonable, believe in it. No one cares what the fuck you believe in, Your support for your own religion is all that matters. And I dont know of any religions in the entire world that's main goal is prove other religions wrong. What you believe in is entirely up to you, and what your mind can compute. Trying to prove whatever is illogical in other religions is absolutely useless, because all you are doing is reducing the faith of people who heed to your words. And when theres no faith, theres only confusion. So believe what you want to believe. And stop trying to prove everyone else wrong.

Religion may not have been designed to be debated, but it is. Who the hell cares what it's designed to do, if it has possibilities beyond the original "programming"? The point is, religion can be debated, and therefor it is.

And since when is there confusion without faith?

Lol@Encyclopedia Dramatica

[Aliotroph?]

Since quotes like this: Religion was not designed to be debated. It's an idea or concept that demonstrates the possible cause of life and death, what happens before you are born, what happens after death, what changes the outcome of either, and what can be done to live and die happily. The backbone of which is called:

FAITH

...imply that there's only one thing you can have faith in, as though no other faith was faith. The very fact that people have faith in different religions destroys his argument that we shouldn't debate it.

[Nomad]

Yeah, Rusty is correct. It's all the same to me.

I must also ask, since the Islamic people made most of Newton's discoveries several hundred years before he did, does that mean that they were contacted by gods?

No. You can replace "religious discoveries" of ancient people with "scientific discoveries" of modern days, and all it really means is that ancient people weren't imbeciles. There's nothing that says that people from 1000+ years ago couldn't have made the same discoveries we have. Whether it's year 2000BCE, or year 2000CE, homo sapeins sapiens still has roughly the same mental capacity.

Shifting those discoveries over to some kind of divine inspiration is the same bullshit that the Monotheists do. You are one of them, I hate to tell you.

There are only two things that I can fathom that would have a large impact on what the ancients could have discovered, and that is the Microscope and the Macroscope (or telescope). Without these tools, they couldn't really discover the very small, or the very far away. Sure, with careful study of the night sky, they could come up with a pretty accurate representation of our position in the galaxy, but they could not possibly have discovered things either cannot be seen with the naked eye, or observed through its effects on other objects in the sky. And sure, the ancients could observe the effects of disease, but they could not observe the organisms causing them, which is why most ancient peoples attributed disease to evil spirits.

The only advantage I have ever seen in communion is teh wine! :D

Fixed

[blood imp]

I must also ask, since the Islamic people made most of Newton's discoveries several hundred years before he did, does that mean that they were contacted by gods?
That reminds me of something. Why do people speculate that the great feats of mankind were only possible because the people were contacted by extraterrestials and/or gods? Look at the pyramids. There are a lot of nuts nowadays that think they (the pyramids) were built by aliens. Why? I'm not saying that their view is 100% wrong, or that they are insane. Hell, maybe they're right! But why can't people except that humans are capable of what we've apperantly done?
Same goes to nature and chaos (chaos as in the series of "accidents" that may have led to life). Is the chance of these accidents really null? Or just highly unlikely? Because, remember, as long as there is a chance, it can happen.
We don't have to attribute everything we do to dieties and aliens, you know.

[+Acyclitor+]

Shifting those discoveries over to some kind of divine inspiration is the same bullshit that the Monotheists do. You are one of them, I hate to tell you.I think the key difference is that I just draw parallels, I'm not out there to prove or disprove anybody.

This suggestion is hardly different than one that "nectorhead", a hardcore Catholic, gave to Nomad. He encouraged Nomad to go to church and experience communion to start on the path to theism.I realize, but sometimes you just have to invite somebody to try getting perspective from the other side of the argument.

Hell, maybe they're right! But why can't people except that humans are capable of what we've apperantly done?most people like to think that humanity is at its height today, that we here and now are the best and smartest people that have ever roamed the planet. so when engineers and archaeologists can't figure out how anybody could move a 200 ton stone (even with modern equipment), such as the ones used in the Giza pyramids or on the Pyramid of the Sun, it tends to put a crack in your superiority complex. the logical explanation for somebody like this would be that the ancients must have had help. at least I think thats the thought process going on.

[FATAL]

Just to cover up a few things.

According to Wikipedia, the stones were around 80 tons tops, and only during the transfer from the quarries. When they were used to construct the pyramid, they were a fraction of that size.

Considering that even a small fighter jet can carry nearly 10 tons of weapons, I'm sure that there are bigger aircraft able to carry those slabs. Not to mention how much more efficient trains are for such purpose. Also I'm sure that constructing a pyramid wouldn't take around 100 years anymore, but everyone can see how pointless such construction would be.

They had slaves, nutjob leaders and tons of time to perform these stunts, so I don't find them that miraculous at all.

[Nomad]

Actually, most of the workers on the Great Pyramids were citizens under the pharaoh, and it was pretty much volunteer work. They did it to honor both their pharaoh and the gods.

[blood imp]

I would hate to volunteer for something like that! Although, they were sort of pharaoh fanatics, weren't they? Or they may have done it out of fear. In any case, sux2bdem.

[Aliotroph?]

They did it because their kingdom was a cult and as far as they were concerned supporting the king was The Right Thing. Ever wonder why Shakespeare takes Caesar's side so much even though that play didn't touch on his policies? Same deal there.

And I thought we figured out ages ago how the Egyptions moved 80-ton stones. :D

[Lord Kaizen]

That reminds me of something. Why do people speculate that the great feats of mankind were only possible because the people were contacted by extraterrestials and/or gods? Look at the pyramids. There are a lot of nuts nowadays that think they (the pyramids) were built by aliens. Why? I'm not saying that their view is 100% wrong, or that they are insane. Hell, maybe they're right! But why can't people except that humans are capable of what we've apperantly done?
Same goes to nature and chaos (chaos as in the series of "accidents" that may have led to life). Is the chance of these accidents really null? Or just highly unlikely? Because, remember, as long as there is a chance, it can happen.
We don't have to attribute everything we do to dieties and aliens, you know.


Ancient people had the same mental compasity as they do today. There are pyramids in Egypt, South America and Asia. Why was the pyramid structure so common in ancient times? Alot of people think that the idea for the pyramid had to come from the same place. But actually the concept of the pyramid stems from the idea of creating a structure that reaches closer to the heavens, Like the tower of Babel, pyramids are ancient towers and serve the same purpos. There was no steel back then so it was more difficult to build such a tall verticle structure without it topling over. The easiest way to achive this, was to instead build structures with enormous bases that became narrower towards the top.

[+Acyclitor+]

According to Wikipedia, the stones were around 80 tons tops, and only during the transfer from the quarries.I've read that the foundation stones were about 200 tons and were constructed in one piece. stones of such size were very common among Central and South American ancient sites, and not just as foundation pieces in some cases. a whole lot of good a cargo plane could do you moving that when your already at nearly 72 km above see level and there is basically no flat ground. I'm talking about Tiwanaku, where some of the stones are actually around 100 tons. a C-141, the cargo planes the US military uses (last I remember, I'm not much of a militairy buff), planes designed to carry battle tanks and shit like that, have a max takeoff weight of roughly 160 tons. so I guess it could be done, if you'll forgo the questions of how to load and unload the plane, but (and I may be wrong here) these planes weren't around 2000-3000 years ago.

oh and about the pyramids, yeah they didn't use as much slave labor as originally thought. a good amount of the work force must have been educated or the pyramid would have turned out lopsided or otherwise fucked up.

[Johanbeyl]

Ancient people had the same mental compasity as they do today. There are pyramids in Egypt, South America and Asia. Why was the pyramid structure so common in ancient times? Alot of people think that the idea for the pyramid had to come from the same place. But actually the concept of the pyramid stems from the idea of creating a structure that reaches closer to the heavens, Like the tower of Babel, pyramids are ancient towers and serve the same purpos. There was no steel back then so it was more difficult to build such a tall verticle structure without it topling over. The easiest way to achive this, was to instead build structures with enormous bases that became narrower towards the top.

It seems to me that humans are not destined to figure this science / religion thing out. If we've had the same mental capacity for the last few thousands of years, what is going to change in the near future?

I can't help but to think that science has it tougher. Religion has faith, easily obtained. Science has proof, not easily obtained.

As for the pyramids, you guys saw that interesting documentary about how they apparently line up with Orion's belt or something? That was cool, although I don't think the guy's data is 100%.

[FATAL]

It seems to me that humans are not destined to figure this science / religion thing out. If we've had the same mental capacity for the last few thousands of years, what is going to change in the near future?
That indeed is a great problem.

Learning what has been learned already takes so much time that there are not jacks of all trades anymore. People have to specialise in a narrow topic in order to actually get something done and not just study throughout his life.

To answer your question, we make advancements because we don't have to re-invent the wheel. ;)

[blood imp]

It seems to me that humans are not destined to figure this science / religion thing out. If we've had the same mental capacity for the last few thousands of years, what is going to change in the near future?

I can't help but to think that science has it tougher. Religion has faith, easily obtained. Science has proof, not easily obtained.

As for the pyramids, you guys saw that interesting documentary about how they apparently line up with Orion's belt or something? That was cool, although I don't think the guy's data is 100%.
We may have had the same mental capacity, but back then we didn't have as much information! And, now, we have computers, which are able to store massive amounts of info, so that changes us a bit.
And, yes, perhaps religion does have it a bit better, but they do get bashed a lot (just look at this thread!).
As for the strange allignment of the pyramids, that can mean that them ancients had a understanding of math and astronomy. Unless the aliens helped them, of course! :P

Ancient people had the same mental compasity as they do today. There are pyramids in Egypt, South America and Asia. Why was the pyramid structure so common in ancient times? Alot of people think that the idea for the pyramid had to come from the same place. But actually the concept of the pyramid stems from the idea of creating a structure that reaches closer to the heavens, Like the tower of Babel, pyramids are ancient towers and serve the same purpos. There was no steel back then so it was more difficult to build such a tall verticle structure without it topling over. The easiest way to achive this, was to instead build structures with enormous bases that became narrower towards the top.
Hmm... so perhaps they didn't get help from the Gods, simply inspiration! And actually, the Egyptian pyramids are tombs for the pharaohs, so they were mainly so high so that the dead could reach the afterlife, not necessarly civilization. The Tower of Babel, on the other hand, was built for the people (assuming it exists). Then, God punished them for building it (or something like that), so to stop them, he created languages, so that the workers couldn't communicate.

[Nomad]

The story of the Tower of Babel is hilarious, I have to say. Without the technology we have developed since then, how tall do you think they could have gotten that thing (assuming it existed)? Whatever it was, it probably wasn't any taller than one of the great pyramids.

Of course, today we've built skyscrapers over half a mile high, and I don't see any god getting pissed off and making us talk funny.

Not to mention, we've sent rockets to the moon and beyond.

I don't understand how anyone can take the stories like that as literal fact. It's simply ridiculous.

[+Acyclitor+]

I don't understand how anyone can take the stories like that as literal fact. It's simply ridiculous.agreed. anybody who takes their religion as literal fact is retarded, in my opinion.

as for atheists having a tougher time upholding their philosophy, I don't know. its easy to be a Christian, when practically the whole world is on your side, but its also pretty easy to not have faith in anything and to simply fall back on science and the foundations of logic.

[FATAL]

The story of the Tower of Babel is hilarious, I have to say. Without the technology we have developed since then, how tall do you think they could have gotten that thing (assuming it existed)? Whatever it was, it probably wasn't any taller than one of the great pyramids.

Of course, today we've built skyscrapers over half a mile high, and I don't see any god getting pissed off and making us talk funny.

Not to mention, we've sent rockets to the moon and beyond.

I don't understand how anyone can take the stories like that as literal fact. It's simply ridiculous.
You're such a noob.

Of course god changed the location of his base when he found out that we could just zerg him if we found him.

[+Acyclitor+]

LOL good one

[JohnnyRancid]

You guys aren't even making a decent attempt to even comprehend anything im talking about. I think your all morons.

[Nomad]

What a coincidence. We all think YOU're a moron. I wonder which one of us is right. Majority rules, right?

[FATAL]

Rarely. But on this occasion, I approve.

[Jethro]

Lol@zerg rush.

Johnny, if you want us to deconstruct a logical attack on something, make sure it's a logical attack.

[blood imp]

Johnny, are you talking about your statement in which you claimed "religion was not designed to be debated"? In that case, YUE R TEH N00BZOR!

[ace]

Johnny, nothing was "designed" to be debated. People debate because it's human nature to disagree, because believe it or not, people actually don't always share the same ideals. SHOCK. And debating religion does not cause violence. Arguing (which is NOT synonymous to debating) about them, self-righteousness, big egos and bigotry are what lead to the violence.

If you don't like people debating a sensitive subject, LEAVE. So far I have not participated in this debate and even I am already annoyed by your comments left here so far.

...Sorry for bringing this further into derailment. I just needed to vent. Something has been pissing me off all day. :p



As for the original topic at hand: I'm really itching to write a mega-rant on religion/belief and lack thereof and what I think of it. But at the same time, I'm not nearly motivated enough to do that. But I'll perhaps summarize my thoughts some time soon here if I get un-lazy for a moment or two. But for now I go to sleep. I'm TIRED.

[Pieter Enis]

*invents a "go ace go" cheerleader yell with pompoms and everything*
*performs aforementioned yell*

[+Acyclitor+]

You guys aren't even making a decent attempt to even comprehend anything im talking about. I think your all morons.no, we do - we just don't care. its not your place to say what can/can't be debated, in fact thats nobody's place.

[blood imp]

I think your all morons.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! You called us Morons! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Johnny, nothing was "designed" to be debated. People debate because it's human nature to disagree, because believe it or not, people actually don't always share the same ideals. SHOCK.
OWNED!

[JohnnyRancid]

No you guys obviously are not even bothering to understand. This isn't even as much of a religious debate as it is "your religion is wrong because of this, this and this... bleh bleh read these facts heed my evidence blah blah *cranky* " The point im making is that we are not robots here. Religion and a justice system dont have to be combined, You dont need proof of everything and all that. It has to be believed in. That is why it should not be a debate. Believe what you believe. Putting down other peoples beliefs is not the right way to go because it gives no benefit to yourself. It only offends. I can't believe you guys hadn't gotten this yet.

My parents are very religious people and I go to church with them every sunday and dont complain. I was raised to believe in Jesus and God and all that but to this day it's hard for me to truely believe. HOWEVER. I dont make a mockery of my parents by debating religion with them. Even If I have the potential to even possibly convert them, I don't. Because I respect their beleifs. And If christianity is what they want to believe in, then so be it. This way my whole family is happy. It would be very dissapointing for someone with strong religious descent and beliefs to see what is happening in this thread. They could be really offended, and then question themselves on whether or not they really want to believe in before they saw this discussion. Then they would be lost because they aren't even sure what to believe in anymore. Why? Because you guys felt like it would be such an awesome idea to prove religions as incorrect.

[Nomad]

Define "debate" for us, then, please.

It's only offensive if it's taken in offense, which obviously you are doing. If those of their respective religions want to join the debate, they are welcome to. If they don't want to hear it, then they don't return to this thread. It's really THAT easy!

[+Acyclitor+]

beware the debate nazi, people - he knows whats best!

[Aliotroph?]

If some people happen to lose their faith because I decided to point out the illogic in their beliefs I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

[FATAL]

Also, when it comes to religions, the bad things they produce (first important general idiocy) greatly outweigh any good effects they have. I think it is very safe to assume that world would be a better, more peaceful place without religions.

So, Johnny, think of us as general helpers - making the world a better place; little by little! *l7*

[Ffabbia]

Right, well, see here...

Some point, yonks ago some chick tricked some bloke into eating the wrong kind of apple. Bad move.

Result: ZmG wTf imBa or1ginAl s1n!!!!!11111


Sadly this means that I am now destined for Eternal Damnation regardless of what I do in life.

I could live an entire life based upon total selflessness, dedicated at every moment toward helping others, caring for the sick, protecting the helpless; righting wrongs, fighting injustice, donating all my worldly goods to those less fortunate - without a thought for myself - shunning all vices and worldly pleasures in the unshakable belief that this would detract from an existance based wholely upon serving others.

It would make absolutely no difference whatsoever. The torment of Hell is only a slippery step away, it's yawning chasm waiting below for the inevitable plummet into destruction. My catalogue of good deeds and ultimately pious life means nothing whatsoever to a terrifying snarling, wrathful and dire God determined beyond all reason to make me suffer.

Despite my deeds in life, I am destined to be cast, shrieking into the Abyss, there to endure unimaginable suffering. Hurtled headlong into a lake of burning sulphur, the indescribable agony of which cannot even by expressed in words! As mortals we lack the imagination to even envision the sheer scale of the suffering, terror and screaming, mind-seering pain that this awful punishment entails.

The ceasless, unending torment and agony that I must suffer due to the apple incident so many thousands of years ago will not last just a few hundred years, until I have learned my lesson and promised never, never, never to do whatever it is I am supposed to have done again.....

...It will not last a million years, or even ten billion years. When our sun goes supernova and all life upon the planet is ended, I will still be there, burning, screaming, writhing in indescribably agony that makes the worst and combined excesses of the Inquisition, Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler look like the Teletubbies by comparison. The torment is ETERNAL!

Try and visualise 'eternity' You cannot, your mind shies away from the concept. It's like attempting to envision a new colour; we lack to cognitive process to achieve this, there is no frame of reference that might be used as a template.

Nothing can end it, there is no appeal, no parole. No person will look upon my unending torture and think 'poor guy, he's been burning there for 378 billion quadrillion google years, the entire universe has stopped expanding some time ago, there's only a couple of branes left and all the stringy stuff in the 10th dimension is used up.... aint it time we reviewed his case?'

Aint gonna happen, because this terrible angry, wrathful and vengeful God is utterly without pity, will show absolutely no mercy. In fact God will laugh at me, perhaps to the extent of sending in a couple of additional demons to flay me alive a few quadrillion times as I continuously burn.

If only Adam had never eaten that damned apple! A thousand curses on the nefarious whiles of Eve!

Course - if we take this into consideration it's clear that women are to blame for all this. No wonder the solution involves getting them all subjugated and cast down into their proper place.

So, there's one escape clause from the above 'Eternal Damnation©'.

Phew...thank Heavens for that.

Basically, all I have to do is be 'Saved®'

What's that?

Well basically it means total, compete, unconditional and above all, UNQUESTIONING belief and subjection to the doctrines of the Church.

I have to bend my brain into rejecting almost all known empirical knowledge and place my mindset into a state that 'knows' that all information in an ancient book which was originally the collected works mythology and laws of a few desert cults; but has been frequently modified, revised and re-written by an endless array of groups with differing values and belief systems over the centuries is ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

Every subsequent revision is ABSOLUTE TRUTH, all previous versions are FALSE WORKS and more so...other religions which practice similar beliefs, even to the extent of having only marginal differences of opinion are FALSE and IDOLATORS. My God is the ONLY GOD, my faith is the ONLY TRUE FAITH.

I must use an Orwellian process of doublethink to automatically, intuitively and transparently reject all information which threatens this unconditional and total, unquestioning belief in The Book.

If I, even for a moment, step out of line, and start questioning such 'facts' as the earth being only 10,000 years old the contract is broken - the clause no long applies. Down to the eternal, and unending burning pit of Hellfire I go. No appeal, no mercy.

This, frankly, terrifies me. God is a horrifying tyrant. A merciless monster who delights in thrusting all who question his absolute dictatorship into the torture chamber, marked for total destruction, incapable of pity and deaf to cries for mercy.

Much better to conform...and should I feel a dark thought looming within some deep recess within my brain, some niggling doubt about the fairness of the setup described above...well that's The Devil tempting me. I can attend church, kneel in fearful supplication, pray for forgiveness. Hellfire aborted, crisis over....phew.

...Now of course, God and his son Jesus Christ are often pictured in various sources as loving, benign forgiving parents. Jesus himself was known to preach words of tolerance and peace. But we should not be fooled! He has no tolerance and no time for those who question his divine will. Hell awaits, Eternal Damnation® is but a slippery step way.

Into this institution of terrifying punishment, fear and total subjection of my will I place myself. So help me God©.

[JohnnyRancid]

Also, when it comes to religions, the bad things they produce (first important general idiocy) greatly outweigh any good effects they have. I think it is very safe to assume that world would be a better, more peaceful place without religions.

So, Johnny, think of us as general helpers - making the world a better place; little by little! *l7*

whoa whoa whoa, quite an opinianated misjudgment there. "My idea of the way of life is much better than yours therefore I must be doing the world a favor by convincing all the people who oppose their wrong." That is a basic definition of imperialism. And when there's imperialism, there are rebels. And when those two combine, there's war.

Religion is such a sensitive topic that some people will devote their life to it. I know many people who are very spiritual and have very strong beliefs in their religion. Religion will be there because it's basically just a thought of how everything 'happened'. If you got your own beliefs then keep it to yourself.

[rustyslacker]

Religion is such a sensitive topic that some people will devote their life to it. I know many people who are very spiritual and have very strong beliefs in their religion. Religion will be there because it's basically just a thought of how everything 'happened'. If you got your own beliefs then keep it to yourself.
We are all participating in this thread voluntarily.

Fatal's meaning is not like what you interpret. He is stating that religion on the whole detracts from our potential as a species, and we (the godless) are trying to help people, not offend them.

JohnnyRancid: You are stupid.

[+Acyclitor+]

"My idea of the way of life is much better than yours therefore I must be doing the world a favor by convincing all the people who oppose their wrong." That is a basic definition of imperialism. And when there's imperialism, there are rebels. And when those two combine, there's war.and here you are, telling us your idea for life is that religion should never be debated! hurray for hypocrisy, dimwit!

as rusty says, we all participate here voluntarily. I think all people deserve to have the whole picture visible when it comes to religion, rather than them believing in one religion simply because its what they were taught as a child and its all they've ever known. you can't get the whole picture without debate and discussion.

now JohnnyRancid, you are clearly veering this thread off-topic. I think that if you make any more irrelevant posts telling us how horrible we are for helping to open each others' minds to different possibilities than the rest of us should just ignore you.

Also, when it comes to religions, the bad things they produce (first important general idiocy) greatly outweigh any good effects they have. I think it is very safe to assume that world would be a better, more peaceful place without religions.I disagree. nearly all the destruction done under the name of religion was done by Christianity and Islam - I don't think its fair to put the same kind of blame on the other hundreds of different religions out there.

[Nomad]

Those damn tree hugging Pagans aren't any better!

[/sarcasm]

[Aliotroph?]

Yeah, because we shouldn't blame the abusive ultra-orthodox Jews, the Hindus who marry their daughters off at 12 and cast them out of society at 15 because their husbands happened to fall off a mountain and die, or the Sikhs who come here begging for religious freedom and then insist on carrying knives and abusing their wives. Then there are all those Chinese people who are so deathly afraid of the numbers 4 and 14 but will go out of their way to fill their addresses and phone numbers with 2s and 8s. All of these practices clearly deserve the utmost respect and tolerance and aren't really harmful to humanity!

[blood imp]

shrieking into the Abyss, there to endure unimaginable suffering.
*coughCarycough"

When our sun goes supernova
Actually, no, no it won't.

It's like attempting to envision a new colour
Fuck, you just hurt my brain. I tried, lol.

google years
Googol. Please stop making that mistake, peoples!


whoa whoa whoa, quite an opinianated misjudgment there. "My idea of the way of life is much better than yours therefore I must be doing the world a favor by convincing all the people who oppose their wrong." That is a basic definition of imperialism. And when there's imperialism, there are rebels. And when those two combine, there's war.

Religion is such a sensitive topic that some people will devote their life to it. I know many people who are very spiritual and have very strong beliefs in their religion. Religion will be there because it's basically just a thought of how everything 'happened'. If you got your own beliefs then keep it to yourself.

Indeed, some people will unfortunatley devote their life to Teh Jesus. Poor them. Oh well, poor them.
Johnny, do you know what the word debate means?

Debate
n.
a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints

It means a discussion involving those with opposing views. A discussion is not a thing that's meant to make people follow your beliefs. Only see them. From your point of view.
If you do not wish to participate, consider us morons, and/or think this is a bad topic, please don't post. It will make our lives so much easier.

[+Acyclitor+]

All of these practices clearly deserve the utmost respect and tolerance and aren't really harmful to humanity!as apposed to some Atheists who would like to completely obliterate any/all religion and denounce any abstract and creative thought not rooted in scientific fact, ironically making them just as nihilistic as any Monotheist but in another manner?

[Ffabbia]

What's up with Google years, I searched for it and twas fine? :D (I often write, 'mis-apply' (or spell words) in such a manner as to encompass the odd daft play on words and incorporate a double meaning or three).

Also, I feel strongly that our Sun will go supernova in a few billion years or so, it aint going to last forever, sadly.

[Aliotroph?]

as apposed to some Atheists who would like to completely obliterate any/all religion and denounce any abstract and creative thought not rooted in scientific fact, ironically making them just as nihilistic as any Monotheist but in another manner?

No, we like abstract and creative stuff just fine. We're just tired of people coming up with crap superstitions and seeing ghosts everywhere and then forcing us to live in a society based on that crap.

And no our sunj won't go supernova. That's what huge stars do. LIttle and average stars have a more wimpy death. :)

[Ffabbia]

Is that it then?

Damn it! Our sun really is crap.

I take this to be yet more proof for sheer scale of the Christian god's incompetence. You'd think that he'd have the balls, or at the very least the sense of grandeur to create a decent Sun, one that goes supernova and does not wimp out with an underwhelming series of pathetic pops and sizzles before crumbling like a digestive biscuit in a mug of hot tea?

Bah!

[JohnnyRancid]

You guys have yet to grasp what religion is. You're still acting like robots which is why you keep attempting to remind me how stupid I am. Nothing in religion has to be proven because it's all theory. There is nothing you can say that proves a religion wrong because is is believed in. What happens after you die is for the dead to decide. The living can only theorize what happens after you die or before you are born through the act of creating religions. Then, people who can comprehend how the religion works tend to believe in it. You don't need proof of ANYTHING in order to believe, which is how religion operates.

[+Acyclitor+]

No, we like abstract and creative stuff just fine. We're just tired of people coming up with crap superstitions and seeing ghosts everywhere and then forcing us to live in a society based on that crap.again, the number of religions that would actually force it on you is very small - they are just really fucking popular.

I take this to be yet more proof for sheer scale of the Christian god's incompetence. You'd think that he'd have the balls, or at the very least the sense of grandeur to create a decent Sun, one that goes supernova and does not wimp out with an underwhelming series of pathetic pops and sizzles before crumbling like a digestive biscuit in a mug of hot tea?lmao

[blood imp]

What's up with Google years
I've always spelled it Googol. Maybe both ways are fine?

You guys have yet to grasp what religion is. You're still acting like robots which is why you keep attempting to remind me how stupid I am. Nothing in religion has to be proven because it's all theory. There is nothing you can say that proves a religion wrong because is is believed in. What happens after you die is for the dead to decide. The living can only theorize what happens after you die or before you are born through the act of creating religions. Then, people who can comprehend how the religion works tend to believe in it. You don't need proof of ANYTHING in order to believe, which is how religion operates.
I should be ignoring you right now, but I feel like responding. First of all, YOU are not able to grasp what we're telling you. If you don't like religious debate, then don't post here. You keep on saying that people shouldn't give a rat's ass about what others believe. Let's put it this way, and maybe you'll stop. We all believe that we can debate religion. That's our belief. So you're being a hypocrite and telling us our belief is wrong.
Secondly, religion is much more "robotic" than what we're doing here. In religion, everybody believes the same thing (I'm talking about individual religions, here.). Here, we're having a debate, and trust me, a debate CAN'T exist without different views, so we are NOT robots. As for science, well, that's not very single-minded, either. New things are being discovered time and time again, and even the old ideas are changed. As for us calling you a moron, we do. But that's not because we are single-minded, but because you are, indeed a moron. we keep on telling you to leave if you don't like the discussion, but instead you try to force your idea on us.
Third, we are not trying to force our ideas on each other, but simply DEBATING them. Jesus, is it that hard for you to comprehend?
Fourth, further proving that you are a moron, the dead can't really decide what happens after you die (or can they?). They can only know, and that's near-impossible anyway, as (following the black-out-after-death theory) you cease to think after death.
So please, if you don't like our little discussion here, LEAVE!

[+Acyclitor+]

Fourth, further proving that you are a moron, the dead can't really decide what happens after you die (or can they?). They can only know, and that's near-impossible anyway, as (following the black-out-after-death theory) you cease to think after death.hey you reminded me of a little something I saw on tv. these Chinese philosophers (I forget what religion) were talking about a concept they call Preservation of Consciousness. they say Consciousness is a form of energy and like all energy in the universe, it can never be destroyed. discuss!

[rustyslacker]

That's a pretty interesting idea. I wouldn't mind keeping some form of consciousness after death, but it would certainly get boring with no body.

[Jethro]

Not necessarily. If you were made of pure energy, Would you not be able to affect energy? Every object on earth has an electromagnetic "shell" surrounding it, keeping the atoms from other objects from going in between the atoms of the first object, or something like that. If you were pure energy, couldn't you "bend" the electromagnetic "shell" to move it? Move the shell and the object would follow, no? It would be fun being able to screw with people by moving objects around, when there is no clear cause of them. moving something to the other side of a room, when they aren't looking, rearranging things while their backs are turned, slowly driving them mad...*diablo*

[Pieter Enis]

I take this to be yet more proof for sheer scale of the Christian god's incompetence. You'd think that he'd have the balls, or at the very least the sense of grandeur to create a decent Sun, one that goes supernova and does not wimp out with an underwhelming series of pathetic pops and sizzles before crumbling like a digestive biscuit in a mug of hot tea?
I've learnt this in Geography. Didn't pay much attention, but I think this is what was said: Our sun will expand a bit (I think double the size?) and turn red, after that it will turn to compressing again as the H is running low, as well as the He and C. When allmost every H has turned into He, the sun will be the smallest it can be. After that, there's an explosion of 'stardust'.
After a while those molecules will start collecting again, forming a new sun of sorts.

And if you don't trust that, look it up in Wikipedia. Our sun goes 'boom', but silently.

What's with Mr Zealot anyways?

[Aliotroph?]

More like expand a lot and eat Venus and Mercury as it does. Scary shit.

[Nomad]

Yeah, our star will expand and consume Mercury, Venus, Earth and probably Mars, then shrink to a tiny white dwarf about the size of Earth (or so they say).

[blood imp]

I saw on a program that it will consume Mercury and Venus, and probably Earth, too. But Earth might get further away from the Sun do to it getting less dense and magnetic energy, or something like that. But in any case, we might survive (or at least Earth might)!

hey you reminded me of a little something I saw on tv. these Chinese philosophers (I forget what religion) were talking about a concept they call Preservation of Consciousness. they say Consciousness is a form of energy and like all energy in the universe, it can never be destroyed. discuss!
True that energy "theoratically" can't be destroyed, but it can be changed, or transfered. For example, when a ball is falling, it has kinetic energy. When it hits the ground, some of that kinetic energy is changed into heat energy. So anyway, if our consiousness is indeed energy, then perhaps it is also changed when we die. I don't know into what it can change, but perhaps it can.

[Nomad]

I saw on a program that it will consume Mercury and Venus, and probably Earth, too. But Earth might get further away from the Sun do to it getting less dense and magnetic energy, or something like that. But in any case, we might survive (or at least Earth might)!

If it doesn't consume the earth, it will boil away our atmosphere. Either way we're screwed.

[blood imp]

Yes, that's what I said.
But in any case, we might survive (or at least Earth might)!
I said we might not survive, but the Earth will (assuming it will move far enough away from the Sun).

[Pieter Enis]

I really hope that by then, most people will have grown a brain bigger than the size of a rotten peanut, quit warring eachother and built huge space vessels to explore Deep Space.
So the world would be the other way around :p

[blood imp]

Yeah, by then we might inhabit oother worlds. And besides, we still have what? 5 billion years? Not that bad.

[Nomad]

That's not considering what other end-of-days scenarios (http://exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm) there are out there. :P

[+Acyclitor+]

I'm partial to 2012 theories. I doubt the world will end, nothing ever really ends - but that things might change. perhaps when we cross over the galactic horizontal axis plane the laws of magnetism will be interrupted and our poles with shift? perhaps nothing will happen - and that it is we who must be the change ourselves? luckily, this is one "doomsday" date we'll live to see for sure, so we get to find out in due time.

[Jethro]

20+1+2=23. *jawdrop*

Bah, I doubt the world will end. We'd need to make some changes, and living might suck for awhile, but humans are pretty hard to wipe out.

[Aliotroph?]

I'm partial to 2012 theories. I doubt the world will end, nothing ever really ends - but that things might change. perhaps when we cross over the galactic horizontal axis plane the laws of magnetism will be interrupted and our poles with shift? perhaps nothing will happen - and that it is we who must be the change ourselves? luckily, this is one "doomsday" date we'll live to see for sure, so we get to find out in due time.

Where the hell did that come from? Magnetism has nothing to do with where we are in the galaxy. And flipping the Earth's magnetic poles doesn't sound at all like a very dangerous thing (except that it would screw up a lot of navigation and the Northern/Southern Lights).

And I'm not giving the Mayans any credit for ending their calendar in 2012. They probably just ran out of space on the rocks they were carving those into.

[+Acyclitor+]

Where the hell did that come from? Einstein wrote this in regards to the pole shit & crustal displacement theories "In a polar region there is a continual deposition of ice, which is not symmetrically distributed about the pole. The earth's rotation acts on these asymmetrically deposited masses [of ice], and produces centrifugal momentum that is transmitted to the rigid crust of the earth. The constantly increasing centrifugal momentum produced in this way will, when it has reached a certain point, produce a movement of the earth's crust over the rest of the earth's body, and this will displace the polar regions toward the equator." granted it doesn't have anything to do with the magnetism of the universal equator, that part was just another theory I had heard on some history channel show.

contrary to your immediate and uneducated dismissal of the Mayan calender, it doesn't just end on December 21st, 2012. it has lots and lots of dates beyond, 2012 is just an ending baktun surrounding with lots of cryptic prophecies - none of which explicitly say the end is coming really - they only speak of great changes. but hey, the calendar has been right before, it correctly foretold the exact day Cortez would arrive in Central America.

and it isn't just the Mayans who put a great deal of emphasis on December 21st 2012. lots of people did. the I Chiing, the Sumerian, the Pueblo, the list goes on and on. another similarity nearly all ancient prophecies shared was the "5 ages of mankind."

to say its just coincidence is perhaps a bit like burying your head in the sand.

[Aliotroph?]

It's probably not coincidence. It's probably just an astronomical observation then. Ancient cultures had a tendency to blame the stars for all kinds of dumb crap.

I bet the Cortez part was either lucky or retconned too. :p

[Jethro]

Since this thread is getting off topic, I"m going to argue the part of the Christion. Feel free to ask away!*winky*

[+Acyclitor+]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqP5KdYKFB0

food for thought, and possibly ammo for atheists. the uploader has lots of other interesting videos as well.

[Pieter Enis]

Einstein wrote this in regards to the pole shit & crustal displacement theories granted it doesn't have anything to do with the magnetism of the universal equator, that part was just another theory I had heard on some history channel show.
It's not because it's Einstein that something is automatically right.

contrary to your immediate and uneducated dismissal of the Mayan calender, it doesn't just end on December 21st, 2012. it has lots and lots of dates beyond, 2012 is just an ending baktun surrounding with lots of cryptic prophecies - none of which explicitly say the end is coming really - they only speak of great changes. but hey, the calendar has been right before, it correctly foretold the exact day Cortez would arrive in Central America.
That's groovy.
I would like to know how we Europeans found out that they predicted the arrival of Cortez when we didn't even know they existed? :p
Extra coolness for the "5 ages of mankind" thingy

"In a polar region there is a continual deposition of ice, which is not symmetrically distributed about the pole. The earth's rotation acts on these asymmetrically deposited masses [of ice], and produces centrifugal momentum that is transmitted to the rigid crust of the earth. The constantly increasing centrifugal momentum produced in this way will, when it has reached a certain point, produce a movement of the earth's crust over the rest of the earth's body, and this will displace the polar regions toward the equator."
If I'm getting the above information right, they are claiming that the poles are constantly increasing in speed and the earth is as well. I'm not too sure about this, but didn't we have 24h (and a bit) days for a while now?
The fact that they're placed assymetrically can't be just a cause of the rotation of the earth. There are plenty other factors at work.

[blood imp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqP5KdYKFB0
OH SHIT! OWNED!
By the way...
Ark of Covenant + Great Flood = HALO!!!4!!!231!!!!!! LOLOLOLOL!

[Jethro]

Anyone have a rapidshare or other such download of that?

[Aliotroph?]

There's a Firefox extension that lets you downgrab those. Then there's FLV player that lets you play them. Just wish I remembered what the extension was.

The only really interesting thing about that video is the suggestion guys like the Pope may think things other than they preach. Makes you wonder if it's really possible to set up a system like that to last for centuries.

[FreeLanZer]

Just use Vixy for that purpose.. :D
It's an online video converter.. nearly designed to rip things of Youtube and Video Google and such places.
http://vixy.net/

[Giftmacher]

This is funny. The Death Thread was about people's opinions on what happens after you die, and that turned into a religious flame war. Now, Xbolt creates a thread specifically for that, and it turns into a discussion about space. *laugh*

It's only a matter of time before somebody makes a space thread, only to have it turn into a discussion about whether pricy guitar strings are any better than cheap ones.

[Nomad]

Now that you mention it...

[+Acyclitor+]

well there is a reason why the topic turn in such a way. and i've used cheap guitar strings before they sucked.

[Aliotroph?]

Conversation always flows that way.

[Jethro]

I think it's because Xbolt ran. Without him to debunk, there's nothing left. Does that mean we win?*zuh*

[Giftmacher]

I think it's because Xbolt ran. Without him to debunk, there's nothing left. Does that mean we win?*zuh*

I suppose. *uhh*

[Jethro]

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. I never even got a chance to break bible with bible.*owell*
So if we win, what now? Party? Like communism?

[Aliotroph?]

Naw, just go in the other thread and argue with Acyclitor. :p

[+Acyclitor+]

what do you mean we were already arguing in this thread? :D

[Johanbeyl]

I'm curious about what you guys think about stigmata?

[Pieter Enis]

Is that the same as it is in my language?
i.e. Prejudice.

[Nomad]

I think Stigmata refers to something specific, I think in Catholicism. Doesn't it have something to do with the Mark of the Devil?

[ace]

Stigmata is the phenomenon of sores/bleeding at the points on the hands and feet where one would be nailed to a cross in a crucifixion. It mainly is with Catholicism, yes (though in all my years I don't think I ever actually heard anything about it in church/family discussions or the like).

I would guess there's some medical reason for it, personally. Though on the same level I can't imagine why we wouldn't at least know why it happens (if it actually has, I don't recall hearing about any proven/documented cases about it) if that's indeed the case.

[+Acyclitor+]

Is that the same as it is in my language?
i.e. Prejudice.your thinking of stigma

stigmata is the supposed miraculous and unexplainable recreation of Christ's wounds on a person. holes through the hands, wrists or feet, lashes on the back, bleeding from the scalp. to my knowledge nobody has ever documented a fatal spear wound to the heart though.

[Aliotroph?]

It's funny when people don't realize that you have to put the nails through the wrists because the hands wouldn't work. :D

[Nomad]

It's funny when people don't realize that you have to put the nails through the wrists because the hands wouldn't work. :D

That's exactly what I was thinking. Put the spikes through the hands, and they'll dislocate from the wrists.

[Aliotroph?]

The part that makes that even funnier is it's not like anybody had to sit around afterwards and think about it. The Romans aren't some mythical thing from a story; they were a force to be reckoned with for hundreds of years after Jesus and eventually became a Christian empire. Their methods and organization are well documented to the point where I had a prof who could rattle off the names of the Roman consuls from just about any given year.

[Pieter Enis]

your thinking of stigma

stigmata is the supposed miraculous and unexplainable recreation of Christ's wounds on a person. holes through the hands, wrists or feet, lashes on the back, bleeding from the scalp. to my knowledge nobody has ever documented a fatal spear wound to the heart though.
Ah, thanks.
Whatever the explanation might be, I believe the person should go see a doctor immediately.

[Giftmacher]

Ah, thanks.
Whatever the explanation might be, I believe the person should go see a doctor immediately.

Or they could just record their bleeding to death on a paper mache cross and then post it on YouTube. *weird*

[Jethro]

*monkey*BUMP FOR GREAT JUSTICE*monkey*


I just thought of something. What if we took the best of every religion? Albeit there's little offered in most of them, some have some good stuff one you find it, no matter the religion. Why not have one combined from all, and have it worship no god? Rather, keep nothing but the morality found in all of them? Like satanisms kill only in genuine self defense, when your life is threatened, and Christianity's love your neighbor? Take out all the shit from the religions that teaches evil, and have all the morality? Sunday meetings to decide how to improve the town/city/village? Hm... I may have a bible to write.

Book 1:
Chapter 1:
"Live according to morality, over what anyone says you should believe. Before you believe anything, make sure information is accurate and that the sources they site have a factual bearing." OooooOOo... I may actually do this.

[rustyslacker]

I just thought of something. What if we took the best of every religion? Albeit there's little offered in most of them, some have some good stuff one you find it, no matter the religion. Why not have one combined from all, and have it worship no god? Rather, keep nothing but the morality found in all of them? Like satanisms kill only in genuine self defense, when your life is threatened, and Christianity's love your neighbor? Take out all the shit from the religions that teaches evil, and have all the morality? Sunday meetings to decide how to improve the town/city/village? Hm... I may have a bible to write.
Sounds like standard secular humanism to me. For which I am starting an organization at my school.

[Jethro]

Remember: the Christian's greatest fear is losing all that s/he knows and loves with death, so decides to believe in santa and reuniting with all they know after death. you need to teach them to appreciate the love in the world, rather then to see what is bad. Yeah, everything dies. You can still enjoy life, even with death. Oh, and sometimes they are ingrained in christ through fear. That requires them to rebel against christ because of immorality in the bible. *diablo*

[rustyslacker]

Remember: the Christian's greatest fear is losing all that s/he knows and loves with death, so decides to believe in santa and reuniting with all they know after death. you need to teach them to appreciate the love in the world, rather then to see what is bad. Yeah, everything dies. You can still enjoy life, even with death.
Sounds like standard secular humanism to me.
Honestly, it doesn't sound like you're bringing anything new to the table.

[Jethro]

Actually, that was advice for yer group.
Deconversion & whatnot.

[Nomad]

I don't think any of us are really interested in "deconversion".

Myself, I could really care less what people believe in--it's none of my business. However, it just makes me sick to see so many peoples' beliefs having a profound influence in a society that claims to have equal regard for all beliefs.

[+Acyclitor+]

Myself, I could really care less what people believe in--it's none of my business. However, it just makes me sick to see so many peoples' beliefs having a profound influence in a society that claims to have equal regard for all beliefs.well said.

[rustyslacker]

Myself, I could really care less what people believe in--it's none of my business. However, it just makes me sick to see so many peoples' beliefs having a profound influence in a society that claims to have equal regard for all beliefs.
What people choose to believe is their own business, but on occasion I try to let people know that their are alternatives to their parents' religions.

[FATAL]

It's like the perfect spot for a "your mom" joke.

[+Acyclitor+]

your momma so slutty she heard Jesus wuz commin so she opened her mouth

[Jethro]

Oh god, I lol'd.

[Giftmacher]

God, this is disgusting. I was at a Baseball game today (which is funny because I hate sports), and while my friend and I were in line to get into the stadium, some guy passed out these "admit one" tickets. I looked at the back of the ticket, and to my great displeasure it read:

Most people think their ticket to heaven is to be a good person. Would you consider yourself a good person? Most people do. Answer the following questions honestly and listen to your conscience. Have you even told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything, irrespective of it's value? Have you ever looked at someone with lust? Jesus said that is the same thing as committing adultery with them. Have you ever hated anyone? If you have the bible says that you are a murderer. If you have answered "yes" to these questions then you are a liar, a thief, an adulterer and a murderer and you will be found guilty on judgement day. If you die in your sins you will be condemned to eternal punishment in hell for your crimes against God. God loves you and doesn't want that to happen. That is why he sent Jesus to suffer and die on the cross. Then he rose from the dead, defeating death. You broke God's law, but Jesus paid your fine. Your only ticket to heaven is Jesus Christ. To be forgiven and go to heaven you must repent (confess your sins, be specific, and turn from them) and put your complete trust in Jesus Christ alone. Just pray for your heart. Do this today before it's too late! Then begin to read the bible daily and obey what you read. www.YouGotOurTract.com

Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable. And the standards that they set for people to live by are simply too much for anybody to expect of a human being. It it impossible not to feel lust, because it's a human instinct. These rules aren't fair in any meaning of the word, nor is the fact that they pass these out to crowds and get away with pushing their religion on other people.

I am guilty of all of these crimes, but that doesn't make me a freaking murderer, or a sex predator, or a theif. I don't even think there are any Christians that haven't committed at least one of these.

Makes me sick. *peeved*

[Nomad]

Then begin to read the bible daily and obey what you read.

Great idea! Let's go stone some fortunetellers!

You're absolutely right, Giftmacher. We shouldn't have to ask God for his forgiveness for the way HE made US.

[+Acyclitor+]

what I never understood about Christian theology (within the frame of the Christian mind I mean, as from an external perspective I understand it quite well), is why they are told they must accept Jesus when he has already paid for their sins. Jesus already picked up the tab and you got a free ticket to heaven because he loves you so much - why play by the rules if somebody has already taken the fall for your cheating?

[Giftmacher]

Great idea! Let's go stone some fortunetellers!

You're absolutely right, Giftmacher. We shouldn't have to ask God for his forgiveness for the way HE made US.

Exactly. It's just not reasonable. I think it's especially unfair that even if you're a complete scumbag, as long as you follow the rules you can go to heaven, but if you break even one of the rules even if you're a good person you go to hell. Where's the logic in that? *guilty*

[blood imp]

Most people think their ticket to heaven is to be a good person. Would you consider yourself a good person? Most people do. Answer the following questions honestly and listen to your conscience. Have you even told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything, irrespective of it's value? Have you ever looked at someone with lust? Jesus said that is the same thing as committing adultery with them. Have you ever hated anyone? If you have the bible says that you are a murderer. If you have answered "yes" to these questions then you are a liar, a thief, an adulterer and a murderer and you will be found guilty on judgement day. If you die in your sins you will be condemned to eternal punishment in hell for your crimes against God. God loves you and doesn't want that to happen. That is why he sent Jesus to suffer and die on the cross. Then he rose from the dead, defeating death. You broke God's law, but Jesus paid your fine. Your only ticket to heaven is Jesus Christ. To be forgiven and go to heaven you must repent (confess your sins, be specific, and turn from them) and put your complete trust in Jesus Christ alone. Just pray for your heart. Do this today before it's too late! Then begin to read the bible daily and obey what you read. www.YouGotOurTract.com
Wow, that's sickening. For one thing, I don't think that there is a single person above 6 that has not told a lie. And, if God doesn't want me to go to hell, and loves me so, why does he let me? Isn't he "all-powerful"?
How does hate make me a murderer? Just because I hate someone does not make me a murderer.
Why would I put my COMPLETE trust in Jesus Christ alone? So I can't trust anyone else?
And as for doing what the bible says, how about, no?

[Jethro]

"And as for doing what the bible says,"

http://xs117.xs.to/xs117/07290/lal.JPG

[FreeLanZer]

That is some very interesting reading Jethro. :D

[Jethro]

It's what I'm here for.
*bliss*

Bow to me!
*bow* Jethro

[Giftmacher]

Bow to me!
*bow* Jethro

Sorry Jethro, the bible says I can only worship god. *weird*

Also, reading that list made me want to throw up my Nutty Buddy.

[Pieter Enis]

So that is what Mystic was always talking about ^_^

[BeTaNoL]

All right Jethro!

I did not follow ALL the posts in here, but anyway I will present what I think about religion. For the State, I'm catholic, but for me, I don't have religion. I do not believe in a God, I do not believe in Christ. But I'm not in the "Kill Jesus!, Screw God!, Six six six!" thing either. I simply do not believe. I am rationalist. I believe in things that I saw or it was proven to exist by science. I Jesus comes down to my bed slaps me in the face and tells me to suck his d*ck and believe him, then I will bow down to him and become the next pope. But this won't happen, because I never saw him! ;)

Now, I do HATE the catholic church. It was only raise to steal poor men's land, money, and free will. To raise wars against other countries for no rational reason,to kill millions of people because "they were women that made witchcraft" and so on.

Look at Israel and Palestine slaying each other every single day, and for what? Religion!

[+Acyclitor+]

on youtube the other day I actually saw a Christian guy commenting on the subject of "unblack metal" and he was saying he was proud that his religion has killed thousands and he would like to violently demolish all other religions + Atheism today and so forth. the video has been removed now so I guess I can't show ya :(

[rustyslacker]

Look at Israel and Palestine slaying each other every single day, and for what? Religion!
It's not really about religion. The UN took a big chunk of the Palestinians' land to make Israel, and so Palestine is just a teensy weensy bit mad about that. Israel is partly defending themselves, but partly making Palestinians (militarily speaking) their bitches with the help of USA-supplied weapons. Among other things.

[Fabio914]

The UN took a big chunk of the Palestinians' land to make Israel, and so Palestine is just a teensy weensy bit mad about that. Israel is partly defending themselves, but partly making Palestinians (militarily speaking) their bitches with the help of USA-supplied weapons

Not only because of this but bad things were happening with Palestinians much before UN existence. It began when UK were dominating this area , then when UK domination ends the UN created the State of Israel taking 50% of the territory of Palestine but de facto Israel took 70% of Palestine territories and the conflicts have started then with USA help Israel took all Palestine territory and just in a few years ago they are giving back some Palestine territories but for Palestinians they can not live with Israel as neighbors and conflicts go on but it isn´t their fault ,imagine if some day someone enters in your house and says "Now it all belongs to me, you must be happy because i let you with 10% of your house"...

[BeTaNoL]

I prefer BLACK metal, acyclitor!

[rustyslacker]

Disturbed and Staind aren't exactly black metal.

[Nomad]

on youtube the other day I actually saw a Christian guy commenting on the subject of "unblack metal" and he was saying he was proud that his religion has killed thousands and he would like to violently demolish all other religions + Atheism today and so forth. the video has been removed now so I guess I can't show ya :(

I have to admit, I've heard a few "Holy Unblack metal" bands and they aren't too bad. If you weren't paying attention to Antestor's lyrics, they sound just like any other symphonic black metal band. And that's not really a bad thing in my book. Much better than shit like Twyla Paris and Amy Grant.

That dude sounds like a douche, though.

[BeTaNoL]

Disturbed and Staind aren't exactly black metal.
What the hell you got with the damn Disturbed and Staind?? *squint*

Type O negative is...(kinda doom metal too, bah, it is doom metal...)*bliss*
Venom is...
HellHammer is...
Gorgoroth is...

can I continue?

[blood imp]

on youtube the other day I actually saw a Christian guy commenting on the subject of "unblack metal" and he was saying he was proud that his religion has killed thousands and he would like to violently demolish all other religions + Atheism today and so forth. the video has been removed now so I guess I can't show ya :(
That's disturbing.

[BeTaNoL]

This is one of the religion's effects..