Legacy 2.0 screenshots

[smite-meister]

There have been requests of recent screenshots from Legacy 2.0, which admittedly have been few and far between, so I decided to make a new thread here to serve as a kind of tangible feature presentation. I'll post new images here every now and then to keep you informed of the more important developments ;)

[smite-meister]

Here are a few OpenGL+GLSL screenshots to begin with.

* An older one showing MD3 models in action (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_MD3.jpeg).
* Here's a screenie showing per-pixel lighting with a normalmap (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_normalmapping.jpeg), accomplished using a shader.
* And (finally!) steep parallax shading (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_steep_parallax.jpeg), even though it's still pretty ugly due to inadequate sampling...
* Four-way splitscreen in OpenGL (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_splitscreen4.jpeg).
* Another splitscreen shot (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_splitscreen.jpeg), which also showcases another feature (figuring out which is left as an excercise for the viewer).
* Debugging mode screenshot showing subsectors and segs (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_subsectors.jpeg). I was surprised at how neat the glbsp output really is.
* TrueType font for the console, Unicode support. (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_TrueType_Unicode.png)

[Hurdler]

That's so cool :)

[xbolt]

WOOT! I say, WOOT!

[Osiris's_Legacy]

Hoorays!! This is gonna be grand!!

[jester]

Fucking cool. That imp looks awesome.

I'm looking forward to seeing some more of this kind of stuff, those screenshots are cool.

[Johanbeyl]

Very cool :D

[doomjedi]

Wow, this looks really awesome...
Will be some improvements in splitscreen gameplay as well? or increase of number of games it supports (Strife?)

[jetflock]

man....these screenshots give me ideas....get this stuff out and i will spear head a LEGACY TC....(j/k)

[Doom_Dude]

The steep parallax shading stuff certainly looks interesting....

[DooMAD]

Wow, this looks really awesome...
Will be some improvements in splitscreen gameplay as well? or increase of number of games it supports (Strife?)
It's doing that already with full support for Hexen, heh.

[Knusper]

looks really good... cant wait for the release!

[Rellik_jmd]

We need real time shadows but with the sprites so when you're standing beside the light you don't cast a shadow. :)

Very very cool stuff!

[KuriKai]

What would it look like with hi-res textures?

[Planky]

Like a screenshot with high resolution textures.

[Heidi]

Here are a few OpenGL+GLSL screenshots to begin with.

An older one showing MD3 models in action (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_MD3.jpeg).
Here's a screenie showing per-pixel lighting with a normalmap (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_normalmapping.jpeg), accomplished using a shader.
And (finally!) steep parallax shading (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_steep_parallax.jpeg), even though it's still pretty ugly due to inadequate sampling...

I hate to be an arse, but are you guys experimenting with that shiny junk instead of "attending " Legacy's true priorities?, if I feel like playing Doom 3, I play Doom 3 for christ's sake :D

[jetflock]

I hate to be an arse, but are you guys experimenting with that shiny junk instead of "attending " Legacy's true priorities?, if I feel like playing Doom 3, I play Doom 3 for christ's sake :D
what is your point? these guys are working hard, and doing what they can do at the moment. you could make the doom3 comment with most ports.

[Heidi]

what is your point?

Per-pixel lighting and parallax shading are the last 2 things Legacy needs. As a matter of facts, we don't even have uncapped framerate as of May 2007, so this is kinda like wiping your arse before going to the bathroom, to put it in straight colloquial terms *bad*

these guys are working hard, and doing what they can do at the moment

Right, and I appreciate it, but having absolutely no coding skills, makes me 100% dependant on what they can come up with, and I fear they may end up turning Legacy into a sparkling piece of garbage just like the Team Blur did with Q2E.

you could make the doom3 comment with most ports.

As far as I know, the only Doom port that may have something to do with the technology I mentioned above, is Legacy. Can someone confirm I actually stand correct?. Either way, if I could make the comment with the rest of the Doom ports, I'd be doubly concerned as I'd have no nothing left for a classic Doom experience.

[KuriKai]

ok then, will it do the same thing with hi-resolution textures used to replace the low resolution originals?

[smite-meister]

ok then, will it do the same thing with hi-resolution textures used to replace the low resolution originals?
Yes, although the screenshot actually had a hi-res texture in it. Scale 0.13 I think.

[jetflock]

whatever. just enjoy it.

[smite-meister]

Per-pixel lighting and parallax shading are the last 2 things Legacy needs. As a matter of facts, we don't even have uncapped framerate as of May 2007

Actually I can think of several things less important than fancy visuals (which you can always turn off if you want) :)
I've never really understood why is it that people want an "uncapped framerate", and what it exactly is they are asking for.
Currently Legacy has the original 35 fps fixed framerate of Doom. Sure, we could make the game ever so slightly more responsive and the motion of projectiles and animated geometry a tiny bit smoother by increasing it, but the monsters would still be animated at the original rate because of how the finite state machine AI works. You could have them sliding forward at a constant velocity between animation frame changes, but IMO this would be quite annoying.

For the benefit of the asynchronous netcode, at some point we will "uncap the framerate" (actually make the engine use a variable timestep), but at least for me personally it's not an important feature in itself.


Either way, if I could make the comment with the rest of the Doom ports, I'd be doubly concerned as I'd have no nothing left for a classic Doom experience.
If you want a truly classic Doom experience, try Chocolate Doom (http://www.chocolate-doom.org/wiki/index.php/Chocolate_Doom). ;)

[Pate]

Here's something a bit less controversial. (I hope.)

Classic Doom texture filtering: clicky (http://users.tkk.fi/~jpakkane/filter_nearest.png).

Smooth filtering: clicky (http://users.tkk.fi/~jpakkane/filter_linear.png).

Filtering mode is fully user selectable. Mappers can also (eventually) force a filtering mode on a material-by-material basis. So you can have fully filtered wall textures while maintaining classic Doom blocky monsters.

The keen-eyed viewers will no doubt have noticed that there are graphical errors in the latter image. Maybe Hurdler could tell how to get rid of those...

We also have full support for anisotropic filtering. See the difference yourselves (http://users.tkk.fi/~jpakkane/filter_anisotropic.png).

[Heidi]

Actually I can think of several things less important than fancy visuals (which you can always turn off if you want) :)
I've never really understood why is it that people want an "uncapped framerate", and what it exactly is they are asking for.
Currently Legacy has the original 35 fps fixed framerate of Doom. Sure, we could make the game ever so slightly more responsive and the motion of projectiles and animated geometry a tiny bit smoother by increasing it, but the monsters would still be animated at the original rate because of how the finite state machine AI works. You could have them sliding forward at a constant velocity between animation frame changes, but IMO this would be quite annoying.

All I had thought of was seeing a FPS counter vsynched to my 85hz monitor and eveyrthing moving smoother. Whether it could be done with a sort of interpolation or something else, that's beyond my knowledge *book*

If you want a truly classic Doom experience, try Chocolate Doom (http://www.chocolate-doom.org/wiki/index.php/Chocolate_Doom). ;)

That's not classic, that's archaic :D

We also have full support for anisotropic filtering. See the difference yourselves (http://users.tkk.fi/~jpakkane/filter_anisotropic.png).

Nice, no more forcing that thru my video card drivers *cool* . Any chance for FSAA controls as well?.

[smite-meister]

A couple of new screenshots with splitscreens.
Here: http://forums.newdoom.com/showthread.php?t=33386

[Ajapted]

Two different levels at the same time? Is that a trick, or did you really encapsulate all the globals into a class?

[xbolt]

Why are all four players at the exact same position at the same time?

[Pate]

Why are all four players at the exact same position at the same time?

It's the same view in all viewports. The engine code does not yet support 4 local players AFAICR.

[Osiris's_Legacy]

I see now you've put in the feature of having players on more than one level. Awesome!!

[smite-meister]

Two different levels at the same time? Is that a trick, or did you really encapsulate all the globals into a class?
What do you take me for, a charlatan? :)
All the map-related data has been encapsulated into a class (actually, two), so we can run as many of them simultaneously as we want. And the players can move back and forth between them, if proper bidirectional exits are in place. Only when the last player leaves, the map is deleted, or put into stasis if within a hub.

If we at some point finally get the netcode working, this could make some great new gametypes.
Consider a co-op with respawning monsters, where the first player to reach the end of the episode "wins". A sort of race, where you really don't want to fall behind :D

[jester]

Hey, with those split screen shots, it looks like you've sorted out the FOV issues. Am I right? I mean, I seem to remember asking about the FOV in split screen a while back.. it seems like it's closer to the view you get in full screen now.

Hey, if that's true, does that mean we're pretty close to getting widescreen support, too?

[Pate]

Yes and yes. OpenGL supports arbitrary aspect ratios automatically. Yes, even highscreen, should you be crazy enough to want it.

[Ajapted]

All the map-related data has been encapsulated into a class (actually, two), so we can run as many of them simultaneously as we want. And the players can move back and forth between them, if proper bidirectional exits are in place. Only when the last player leaves, the map is deleted, or put into stasis if within a hub.
Well my hat goes off to you for accomplishing this *thumbs*. I've often wondered "what if" of doing that, but always thought it would be a massive pain-in-the-bum (sooo many globals scattered about the code).

As you say, the possibilities are pretty cool, for one thing proper deathmatch in Hexen where players can teleport to different levels and back.

[jester]

Class.

I've always thought it would be cool to play Doom in proper widescreen on a bloody big TV. The thing is, these days, loads of graphics cards come with TV outputs anyway so it's an option for a lot of people..

[smite-meister]

I've often wondered "what if" of doing that, but always thought it would be a massive pain-in-the-bum (sooo many globals scattered about the code).

It did take some time, but was actually not as hard as I first assumed. Here's our current Map class definition (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/include/g_map.h?view=markup), if you're interested.

[Ajapted]

It did take some time, but was actually not as hard as I first assumed. Here's our current Map class definition (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/include/g_map.h?view=markup), if you're interested.
Neat, though I don't think I'll follow suit :)

Nice use of C++-isms too, I'd like to use the STL a lot more in EDGE (eventually replace all the home-grown stuff).

One thing struck me: the blockmap stuff is almost begging to be in a class of it's own.

[iori]

Very encouraging stuff :)

[CyberG]

Even if you have 4-way visuals how are you going to play with 4 players and only one mouse?

[Devan]

Even if you have 4-way visuals how are you going to play with 4 players and only one mouse?
One player - keyboard+mouse
Other players - keyboard
:)

When I play Doom legacy with my friend, he uses keyboard and mouse. I use only keyboard. But in deathmatch, I often have more frags than my friend has :)

[Pate]

Even if you have 4-way visuals how are you going to play with 4 players and only one mouse?

Joysticks. Also, SDL should obtain multi-mouse and multi-keyboard support at some point. When that happens, though, is pretty much anybody's guess.

[smite-meister]

Don't forget gamepads and dance pads. :)
If it's a modern USB game controller, chances are it works with Legacy.

And, since the control bindings can be defined axis by axis and button by button, you can for example move using your DDR pad and aim and shoot with a joystick.

[Rellik_jmd]

It's the hottest new game all the kids crave: Doom Doom Revolution!

And don't forget, the sequel Doom Doom Revolution 2: Dance Zombie Dance will be out in time for Christmas!

[MR_ROCKET]

/Mr.Rocket digs up his Legacy2 dance shoes, oh yeah time to get dowown ! ;)

[Aliotroph?]

Hehehe, DooM with a DDR pad. Sounds mental. :D

How much data does a texture need for steep parallax mapping anyway? I can see texture people banging their heads on the wall if they ever want that.

[Doom_Dude]

Dance through DooM II and blow a knee joint. :p

Where does one go to learn to make these newfangled parallax textures and whatnot?

[smite-meister]

Where does one go to learn to make these newfangled parallax textures and whatnot?
The parallax mapping is done using a standard texture and a normal/bump map. The normal/bump map is an RGBA texture, where for each texel the RGB components store a surface normal vector and the A component a bump height value. That's all there is to it, really. I have no idea how they are created in practice, but I assume Photoshop and Gimp have all kinds of tools for this.

[DaniJ]

The premier modeling apps (the 3DStudios and Mayas) can render these straight out using a bake.

There are other approaches such as a plugin for Photoshop which will attempt to create a normal map from a diffuse texture with pre-applied lighting but the results are obviously pretty poor.

[MR_ROCKET]

I'v made tons of bumpmap layer textures for Doom3 and using a material script to tell the engine which 3 textures/names are associated. The scripts for Legacy2 I have yet to look into, or if they even need a script. Anyways yeah I used Photoshop for the specs, diffuse and normals. I had to download an Nvidia-Normal-Map plug-in for Photoshop as well, as Dani was saying.

After adding the rbg layer, photoshop will also allow for a slightly low-end demonstration of the effect.
But the outcome in-game is appealing.

[Aliotroph?]

Ahh, so it does store the normal and the height.

Making them still sounds like a pain. Then again, I find making regular RGB textures to be a pain so I shouldn't talk.

[Heidi]

Don't forget gamepads and dance pads. :)
If it's a modern USB game controller, chances are it works with Legacy.

And, since the control bindings can be defined axis by axis and button by button, you can for example move using your DDR pad and aim and shoot with a joystick.

Sounds promising *spin*

I own one of these: http://www.geniusnet.com/geniusOnline/online.portal?_nfpb=true&productPortlet_actionOverride=%2Fportlets%2Fproduc tArea%2Fcategory%2FqueryPro&_windowLabel=productPortlet&productPortletproductId=31009&_pageLabel=productPage&test=portlet-action

...do you think I'll be able to move with the pad, "mouselook" with the RIGHT analog stick and shoot/activate stuff using the buttons on the top?.

[Doom_Dude]

The parallax mapping is done using a standard texture and a normal/bump map. The normal/bump map is an RGBA texture, where for each texel the RGB components store a surface normal vector and the A component a bump height value. That's all there is to it, really. I have no idea how they are created in practice, but I assume Photoshop and Gimp have all kinds of tools for this. That sounds groovy and everything but knowing how that is done is another thing. Time to look for some online tutorials.

Parallax mapping requires scripting?

[Pate]

...do you think I'll be able to move with the pad, "mouselook" with the RIGHT analog stick and shoot/activate stuff using the buttons on the top?.

Yes. This has been possible for quite some time already.

[smite-meister]

Parallax mapping requires scripting?
No, but it requires the parallax mapping GLSL programs (which will probably be included with Legacy unless you want to make your own), and a material definition lump, which some people like to call a script even though it really isn't.

This material definition would change the in-game texture BROWN1 to be parallax mapped using a custom texture and a normalbump map.

shader parallax_mapping
{
vertex_source "parallax_vs.glsl";
fragment_source "parallax_fs.glsl";
}

material BROWN1
{
texture_unit
{
texture "actual_texture.png";
worldsize 100 200;
filtering LLL; // use trilinear filtering
}

texture_unit
{
texture "corresponding_normalbump_map.png";
worldsize 100 200;
}

shader_ref parallax_mapping;
}

[Doom_Dude]

Ahh ok smite-meister. Look forward to messing with this stuff later on. :D

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah same here!, soon as a new L2 win32 version is compiled I'm ready to get my hands dirty. ;)
Is there a possible beta1 soon?

[Organicjerk]

Those new splitscreen features look awesome! Great work!

Am I safe to assume that the sound issue with Legacy Splitsrcreen has been resolved and both(or more?) players have equal sound? (I always figured with the 2 player splitscreen one player per channel would have been nice)

[Danimetal]

Why?. Why did I miss all this stuff :(...

[lucius octavion]

Looks like a lot of hard work!

[MR_ROCKET]

The new Legacy is gonna be sweet !
I wonder if Pate has any new screenshots for us also?

[Pate]

Not really no. Haven't done much, only behind the scenes kind of stuff.

[Organicjerk]

Not really no. Haven't done much, only behind the scenes kind of stuff.

Have the sound issues with splitscreen been resolved?

[smite-meister]

In a way, yes. In splitscreen mode, all 3D sounds are played from the point of hearing of the player to whom they sound loudest (currently always the player nearest to the sound origin).

[CyberG]

I'm with Heidi on this one. My question is if they will be working on solid gaming stuff, like fast and stable net code, or Pull an M$ Vista on us, making promisses, but only delivering a bunch of pretty colors, and still pass up the real reason for the C++ version, because they botched up the C code.

[Organicjerk]

In a way, yes. In splitscreen mode, all 3D sounds are played from the point of hearing of the player to whom they sound loudest (currently always the player nearest to the sound origin).

I'm sorry, but I don't understand...

If two people are in two totally different rooms, fighting monsters, how will the two speakers play the sounds?

[Aliotroph?]

I think he means you hear all the sounds but the engine treats every sound as though it was coming from the closest player to the sound in cases where both players can hear the sound. You don't get one speaker for each sound, which make sense because SDL probably doesn't mind doing the sounds on more than two speakers if it can so it just maps everything into one soundscape. This is logical, and it's how you'd expect the sounds to work on a console game.

[Nemesis]

Nice to see Legacy 2.0 coming along nicely. Loved the screenshots, too. (:

[MR_ROCKET]

CyberG did they really botch up the C code or did they just have to hack at a lot of it to get other things to work right, or was it simply never finished? Well I guess botching something up is basically hacking at the code to get it to work better.

I wish support would have continued on the C version but I look at it this way, the C++ being the update with "everything legacy has and more", going by the docs and features (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/features.html?content-type=text%2Fplain) page in which the C legacy version never really had the best of, the looks of it, it's a new source engine, with a bunch of goodies.

But if Doom_Dude doesn't have his Slopes, we may have a problem..:D

Anyways, about the sound, this doesn't have to do with split screen but I'v have this sound issue with the Alpha. - and I should probably report this on the bug tracker.
No music, (which is understandable right now) and the sound fx are getting cut short part of the time.
I have a Creative SB Audigy2 ZS
Dx9.0c

[Doom_Dude]

But if Doom_Dude doesn't have his Slopes, we may have a problem..:D I had a dream last night that Legacy 2 came out with 3D slopes and I was writing some kind of editing thinghy about them. Then I woke up. *yuck*

[sLydE]

I had a dream last night that Legacy 2 came out with 3D slopes and I was writing some kind of editing thinghy about them. Then I woke up. *yuck*
wow, exciting dreams.

[Doom_Dude]

haha not sure if that's sarcasm or not. ;)

[Rellik_jmd]

Heh, better than dreaming about work, then getting up and going to work.

[MR_ROCKET]

If only dreaming paid heh.
Who knows, maybe Smite will add slopes sometime after the engine is solid enough to do so?

[FMofdeath]

I've had a dream about playing Zdaemon when I started playing for the first time ever >_<

[MR_ROCKET]

Rofl see what you started Doom_Dude :D

[Doom_Dude]

Ooh my. *rolls up thread and hides it in under Planky's bed.*

[Danimetal]

Just woke up and saw a world full of slopes. Real life can look so good sometimes :P.

[Devan]

Just woke up and saw a world full of slopes. Real life can look so good sometimes :P.
And there are textures maybe 99^99^99 pixels width and height, and real reflections, dynamic lights, no map limit :) and everything can move. And no lag :)

[Danimetal]

The lag depends on how much I drank the previous night :P.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ok this is a development thread, So quit your lallie-gagg'n..te-he.
I'm lagg'n too..:D = July 3rd..

Real world WHAT?!? I thought I was playing Legacy!
Doom_Dude, Planky doesn't know about the threads stashed under his bed does he?

[Devan]

The lag depends on how much I drank the previous night :P.
:D
Well, I also had dream about Legacy 2.0 released. A few months ago. Legacy 2.0 in my dream had polygonal software renderer and I saw GTA SA map imported to it and there were Sim Copter graphics (SimCopter also uses polygonal software renderer) :D

[lucius octavion]

Yeah real life definitely performs better than game. Better graphics, no limit, interaction with everything, no lag, everything looks so real. But John Romero already said that regardless of how realistic it is, doom is "more fun than real life".

[rustyslacker]

So...any new screenshots to show us plaz?

[Jive]

pathetic !!!
real life... bla bla bla... development... bla bla bla... Time... bla bla bla...
Doom is dead!

[MR_ROCKET]

Well that's.. definitely a new statement coming from our good buddy Jive?
What brings you here to say something like that..I mean sure it's an old game but it's "just as fun to play as it always has". Your feeling for the game hasn't changed my friend, I personally think you'v been hanging out with those nasty Hell Knight's to much..When worse comes to worse, dude pick up some med packs and run, then get your ground and take aim again..Until then, play all the awesome new games as we all do, and then jump back into the battle of the most responsive game ever.
Looking at today's sourceport standards, Doom isn't dead, it's only gotten better.

Anyways, here's some Legacy2 screenshots:
Clicky (http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/Legacy_stuff.htm)

[Aliotroph?]

What's with the console in all those? The console does look nicer, but one pic of it is enough. :p

Jive, I bet there's something else bugging you. No reason to be mad over a lack of development in Legacy. It happens. Meanwhile, I'm making a clever little map for GZDoom so I can learn ACS and ZDoom editing. I don't play much DooM anymore but I still play some. Real life really does get in the way of DooM though.

[MR_ROCKET]

I couldn't decide which console background I liked best. :D
There's plenty more heh, even one partly translucent Newdoom forums console background. :p Which wasn't included in the package.

[g6672D]

E1M2
-------
E1M1

Like this picture. :) What's the latest available build?

[MR_ROCKET]

The latest SVN build for Windows is available here:
http://legacywiki.net/index.php/Main_Page

The above HUD icons and Console stuff aren't included in this version, but I believe they may be releasing a new version soon.
The icons are a little fancy. If everyone still likes them I donno. I was thinking of making another version and just updating the original icons in the Legacy resource.

[Doom_Dude]

What I want to know is how much work is left on the renderer? Can't help but wonder as we don't hear anything about that kind of stuff, it seems.

[MR_ROCKET]

Well Pate was showing the texture filtering here (http://forums.newdoom.com/showpost.php?p=507204&postcount=23) over on page 2. And Smite was showing shader stuff and the 2 and 4 player split screen stuff. And I was showing the HUD stuff. All of which has to do with the rendering in a way.

What's bothering me is the sprites, they seem overly pixilated, like something in the code says make the boarder around the sprites transparent tolerance off the scale. Very strange, maybe Pate will put a filter on the sprites which will take care of that?

: (http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/current1.png) Alio, any comments on the HUD icons in the last screen?

[Pate]

The biggest problem currently is doing transparency correctly. This turns out to be quite hard to do. The old renderer cheats like a mofo and I'm sure you have all noticed some bugs there.

Then the only main missing thing would be dynlights. Hurdler? Some comments here?

[Doom_Dude]

Yes please Hurdler, we need to hear from you too. :D

[Hurdler]

Ah yes, the transparency thing was a nightmare! It was a legacy of the glide code and because in the past we couldn't waste video memory at all (remember we had to deal with 2x2Mb for all textures). Biggest problems happen when the fog is activated.

As for dynamic lighting, that depends what we want to do... Do we still need the old way to do it (not with shaders)? If yes, I could have a look at it but I don't know when. For sure, doing this with shaders would give much better results (see Smite's screenshots). I suppose Smite code use GLSL, so maybe we have to adapt it a bit to support older hardware like GeForce3 or even Intel integrated chipset?

[MR_ROCKET]

I was looking at this (http://www.lighthouse3d.com/opengl/glsl/index.php?lights), would it be any help?
Not saying you guys would need, but it's just what I found and it may have something in there worth looking at.

[smite-meister]

As for dynamic lighting, that depends what we want to do... Do we still need the old way to do it (not with shaders)? If yes, I could have a look at it but I don't know when. For sure, doing this with shaders would give much better results (see Smite's screenshots). I suppose Smite code use GLSL, so maybe we have to adapt it a bit to support older hardware like GeForce3 or even Intel integrated chipset?
The old way of doing dynlights is to find N most relevant point light sources for the player whose view is being rendered and for each such source, render a circular lightmap (same as the corona texture) on each surface near the light, scaling it according to the distance of the light from the surface.
In other words, cheating like hell, but getting pretty good results and performance :)

The GLSL per-pixel lighting approach would be entirely different and MUCH slower on older hardware. On more recent cards though, it could work just fine.

Both approaches suffer from the fact that there is no occlusion from the geometry (no dynamic shadows). AFAIK Doom 3 used stencil shadows everywhere, but it's very GPU-intense...

[Hurdler]

The old way of doing dynlights is to find N most relevant point light sources for the player whose view is being rendered and for each such source, render a circular lightmap (same as the corona texture) on each surface near the light, scaling it according to the distance of the light from the surface.
In other words, cheating like hell, but getting pretty good results and performance :)

Well resumed!

The GLSL per-pixel lighting approach would be entirely different and MUCH slower on older hardware. On more recent cards though, it could work just fine.

performance tests have to be done, but it might just work even on older hardware (I mean GeForce 3 and higher) on medium resolution (like 800x600).

Both approaches suffer from the fact that there is no occlusion from the geometry (no dynamic shadows). AFAIK Doom 3 used stencil shadows everywhere, but it's very GPU-intense...

But that's not really an issue since we haven't done that before. We can still add this kind of stuff later if the hardware support it.

[xbolt]

performance tests have to be done, but it might just work even on older hardware (I mean GeForce 3 and higher) on medium resolution (like 800x600).
You mean... My GeForce 3 is now at the low end of the spectrum? *ohmy*

[Aliotroph?]

Yeah, pretty much has been for a while. :p Despite the hype around those things they don't like doing a lot of stencil shadows.

Where I'm curious is what kinds of lighting methods would look good in DooM? Legacy's previous dynamic lights looked ok in a bright room but the way they blended looked like garbage in the dark. The coronas on the tech lamps were damn pretty though! :D

I have to say I stopped caring much about stencel shadows. They tend to look bad in most cases unless you have a lot of trickery going on to soften them. Lots of games like Alien vs. Predator, or Oblivion, have neat-looking lighting without the shadows. What might look pretty good (and be cheaper on the CPU) would be fake shadows. Oblivion has "tree canopy shadows" that are definitely not shadows cast by the trees but they look cool where they're used (John Carmack will hate me forever for that remark).

What would be especially neat is being able to cast light from specific surfaces, like a computer monitor, light texture, nukage, etc. Doomsday has a clever hack for this where you can stick regular lights to textures but it doesn't look all that great most of the time. Even Oblivion can't do this. They can define lights in cubes and such but they don't have a way of just emitting them from a surface like a window. Oblivion has a lot of windowed-areas that look like sets from a cheap, old TV show as a result.

[Pate]

Ah yes, the transparency thing was a nightmare! It was a legacy of the glide code and because in the past we couldn't waste video memory at all (remember we had to deal with 2x2Mb for all textures).

I'm currently stuck with doing the back-to-front sorting correctly. If you only have on/off transparency, there is no problem. If you have translucency in monsters, there is no problem. But when you add translucent 3D floors you are pretty much screwed. Add translucent middle textures to that and you want to pull your hair out.

[xbolt]

Yeah, pretty much has been for a while. :p
Yeah, I know. Never expected that it would be huffing and puffing trying to run Legacy though... :D

[Aliotroph?]

You should have seen my poor 16MB Mobility Radeon. Poor thing was starting to hate Legacy. Discovered the game worked a lot better with the config file set to precache sounds though.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah and then the good ol days of my Monster Voodoo2 ;)
It was only a 16mb card but the 3dfx extensions that Legacy had at the time was so sweet. ;) Later I got a Geforce2 and then 3 and then 4, now days I'm only sporting a 6800 but with a Core2 duo CPU, I bet could run 16 instances of Legacy now. :D

Oh btw, I guess you missed my edit back on the other page but I said something like:
: Alio, any comments on the HUD icons in the last screen? :D

[Hurdler]

I'm currently stuck with doing the back-to-front sorting correctly. If you only have on/off transparency, there is no problem. If you have translucency in monsters, there is no problem. But when you add translucent 3D floors you are pretty much screwed. Add translucent middle textures to that and you want to pull your hair out.

Ah ok! Yes indeed! It's hard to have proper sorting on the floors. That's why the console variable (don't remember its name, gr_translucentfloor?) wasn't on by default. It works not so bad with small floors and with enough space between them but not with big floors or if the space between them is too small. There is a doc on NVidia website to avoid that using multipass rendering (much slower of course).

MR.ROCKET had a cool test map for that. It worked very well most of the time. So, I would says that's something that can be fixed by compliant level design ;)

Yeah, I know. Never expected that it would be huffing and puffing trying to run Legacy though... :D

We are talking about improving the rendering engine here. I suppose there will always be the option to run it as it works right now.

[Pate]

Since you are here, how did the old OpenGL renderer find out what light level to use when 3D floors are used (the "shadow under 3D floor" effect)? I can't decipher it from the code.

[Danimetal]

Speaking about 3d floors and renderers, why does the software renderer render the translucent 3d floors themselves (linetype 300) in full light?. It does work with the OpenGl renderer but with hardware seems odd to have a dark room with a full lit floor.

[Aliotroph?]

Since you are here, how did the old OpenGL renderer find out what light level to use when 3D floors are used (the "shadow under 3D floor" effect)? I can't decipher it from the code.

Doesn't it just grab the light level from the control sector?

EDIT: I liked those icons, Rocket. :)

[MR_ROCKET]

Awesome Alio, I have some feed back, but now I have another question, do you "still" like them? :D
Because it almost sounds like you liked them then, but now you don't. :P


Here's a question to the developers:
Will software PNG translucency work just like it does in hardware Opengl? If so that would be great, but currently I can't tell. - question has to do with the overlays.
If not, then it's back to the drawing board for me to make an overlay version that will look right in both renders. Is this fixed in the build that you guys are working on now?


About the 3d floor light level, this stuff is working in Software render. You mean Hardware render has to totally rebuild that data?

[Pate]

Doesn't it just grab the light level from the control sector?


That is what it is supposed to do. I want to know how it does it.

About the 3d floor light level, this stuff is working in Software render. You mean Hardware render has to totally rebuild that data?

The way it works is a mess of old spaghetti code with very few comments. Not to mention that the the way the level geometry is drawn in sw and OpenGL is totally different. They have roughly 0% code in common.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah I see, and now fully understand why you would have a mess of hair gathering around your office chair.

Yeah a nice comment would have been :
/// Here we have the function which tells control sector lighting data to be placed in the tagged target sector.

It's strange that that actual 3dfloors are working in hardware but sector lighting isn't. Could there be a retainer somewhere that has to do with standard sector lighting but nulled out before it gets to 3d line type data structures?
/shrug..

[Hurdler]

Since you are here, how did the old OpenGL renderer find out what light level to use when 3D floors are used (the "shadow under 3D floor" effect)? I can't decipher it from the code.

Ich, I don't remember at all :(

[MR_ROCKET]

I hope Hurdler has time to look at the code, and decide what needs to go into trunk.

[Hurdler]

The way it works is a mess of old spaghetti code with very few comments. Not to mention that the the way the level geometry is drawn in sw and OpenGL is totally different. They have roughly 0% code in common.

Well, the code was duplicated if I remember well and then tweaked separately . Bad design for sure :(

I hope Hurdler has time to look at the code, and decide what needs to go into trunk.

That's what I hoped since I've moved over here :p We can say my life has radically changed since then. But I do not despair. I will find the time someday.

[MR_ROCKET]

Well until then, here's a few more screenshots you guys may have already saw where I was sort of taking a testing stab at hi-res sprites using NTEXTURE.
http://forums.newdoom.com/showpost.php?p=513503&postcount=31

And another :P
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/151/legacy2shothv7.jpg

[Danimetal]

Nice!. I like Doom the way it looks, with horrible 128x128 textures and such but this thing looks quite promising!!. I wonder if they'll become new quality standards...

[MR_ROCKET]

Well before I even started drawing this texture out, my intentions were to make it look like the original brick10 wall texture. -minus the spray paint :P This texture isn't done yet but by the time I finish it I want it to actually look like the 64x128 version at that prospective, until you get close enough to it when the detail starts coming out. ;)

[smite-meister]

It's been too long since the last development screenshot. Here is an OpenGL one in debugging mode showing subsectors and segs (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_subsectors.jpeg). I'm hoping to use them to make the bot pathfinding more efficient...

[xbolt]

It looks kind of like a grid of lasers or something...

[Rellik_jmd]

Awesome, better bots would be very cool. Actually the main thing they need is to know not to blow themselves up. Though it may not be a coding problem, but a self-esteem issue.

That's what Legacy really needs, a therapy bot. :-P

[MR_ROCKET]

Heh, Legacy1.4x DM bots are pretty good though @ skill5 ;)
IMO, better than any bots in any other sourceport.

However a good fix for them would be to get telefragged at spawn spot, to keep from getting stuck together. ~ in both DM and CO-bot-OP.
And if there was a way to reframe them from picking up every single power up etc. items that you would need otherwise in co-op that would be sweet. :)

In Legacy2 though, it seems they don't function like they should, or is it that they use up all my system memory? heh
Which will cause a system freeze shortly after enabling them.

Anyways, neat screenshot Smite, wonder why there's no lines to the left?, in the bounding sector.

[smite-meister]

wonder why there's no lines to the left?, in the bounding sector.
They're covered up by the middle texture. Anyway, if there is a middle texture there, there's also a subsector border.

[jetflock]

can they tell what a 3d bridge is yet?

[MR_ROCKET]

Oh yeah, the recent Legacy2 alpha5 has 3dfloors in both software and opengl jetflock, not only that you can slap hi-res textures on them. ;)
I don't remember if the 3dfloors sector lighting was working in opengl.
Here's a shot (http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/current_map1.png) in Legacy2, but I didn't put any hi-res textures in it.

I'm hoping glvis build time is faster now though? ~ it took over 8 hours to run a build on the above shot. (with glvis - for opengl)
Glbsp is fine, but glvis is 1 leg'd dog dragging balls slow..

Would it be any faster if glvis was implemented into runtime Smite?

[DaniJ]

Moving the generation of the GL PVIS data into Legacy won't have any impact on the amount of time required to generate it. It is a fairly complex algorithm.

We considered using the GL PVIS data in Doomsday but the consensus was that the amount of overdraw saved by the structure wasn't worth it compared to Doomsday's existing angle clipper (which works in a similar fashion to a portal based, polygon clipper where instead of constructing clip polygons from portals; a 360 angle map (centered on the viewer and aligned to the world axis) is clipped using 2D hyperplanes converted to 1D angles. The first planes of which can be derived straight from the viewfrustrum. Subsequent hyperplanes are derived from the view normal and the outermost vertex from the interior edge of each vertical seg drawn via normal BSP traversal).

Doomsday's 360 angle clipper has since been used in practically every other GL rendering sourceport (currently: Risen3D, glBoom, ZDoomGL, GZDoom, Skulltag and recently, PrBoom-Plus), so it is a proven and fairly mature algorithm, that requires no pre-generated data.

Note that because Doomsday's 360 angle clipper is dynamic, we can also clip polyobject segs alongside static wall segs. So polyobject segs within a subsector should be added to the clipper first (if they themselves have already passed the in-frustrum check).

[MR_ROCKET]

Wow sounds like the angle clipper algorithm would be the way to go then.
The part that wasn't clear to me is the polyobject within a subsector, Is this actually a 3dfloor? If so, how well does the angle clipper handle them?
If wanted I could construct a Chinese puzzle out of 3dfloors, but I have no idea what its scientific/code name would be broke down to heh. ;)

Never the less, I did fallow about 98% of what you just said. :D

[DaniJ]

The 360 angle clipper does not clip in three dimensions (but then neither does the PVIS structure so some form of additional clipping and zsorting is required to handle 3d floors. Note, that it would be possible to use a derivative of the same algorithm on the world up axis in order to also clip using hyperplanes derived from 3D floors).

Polyobject segs added to the 360 angle clipper are treated in exactly the same manner as static wall segs. This means that the world is clipped by polyobjects which, in hexen, are used for the majority of the doors and thus (potentially) able to clip a LOT of geometry. The PVIS structure does not consider polyobjects at all because of their dynamic nature, so a secondary clipping algorithm is required if you want to minimize overdraw.

[MR_ROCKET]

Well if Gzdoom uses the 360 angle clipper and I'm guessing the world up axis based algorithm for 3dfloors? Then this would be a suitable change in reference to the faster build time in question?

It's funny when you think about the build time though because so many quake3 map authors have gone through the samething heh.
But on a core2 system, no heh.

[DaniJ]

Actually, I don't think GZDoom does clip the world against 3D floors at all. I'm not sure, though.

Certainly, using Doomsday's 360 angle clipper would be a lot faster than having to pre-generate the PVIS data (very expensive).

[Rellik_jmd]

You had me at 2D hyperplanes. *hugs Dani*

[MR_ROCKET]

"hugs Rellik for huging Dani"

"hugs Planky"

[Aliotroph?]

LOL Eight hours on a dual-core box! That must be one of those legendary maps that took Half-Life mappers a week to compile on their Pentiums. Would be kinda funny to tell people you had to upgrade to a quad-core box with eight gigs of RAM just so you could build DooM levels! :D

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah man, Quake 1, 2, and 3 the same, and not much detail in that shot other than a big 4 floor half destroyed building and 2 spiral staircases all made of 3dfloors. Just imagine if it had lightmaps and things to manage heh. I think it's just the speed of the compiler more so than the amount of detail in the map, though if it had no 3dfloors it would be faster, but then not a whole lot.
It has been delt with in the past^, but at any rate it just seems slower heh. I could deal with it, but glvis needs a boost heh.
I wonder if Ajapted would want to hack at that? :D
Or if Smite considers the angle clipper stuffs?

[DaniJ]

I wonder if Ajapted would want to hack at that? I wouldn't have thought so since the GLPVIS stuff was written by Janis Legzdinsh of Vavoom fame.

[MR_ROCKET]

Oh did it come from Vavoom? ~ never made the connection. ;)
I figured it derived from Quake2 heh.

I read there's a -fast switch to add but I havn't tried it yet.

[DaniJ]

Well, the PVIS algorithm is based on the well known common algorithm used with BSPs. Carmack implemented one for Quake3 for example (I don't know anything about the Quake2 engine). So, the GLPVIS algorithm is a 2D derivative of the common PVIS algorithm for BSPs.

glBSP's -fast switch won't help speed up the PVIS generation. That switch allows glBSP to use the normal nodes when generating the gl-friendly nodes, to turbo charge the seg/node picking by using the decisions made in the generation of the normal nodes to guide the decision making process.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah I see, and yeah I know q3 a bit more than q2 as well, it just seemed that vavoom is a lot like q2 visually but not in a full code base of course.

Hmm, do you know of any other way to speed up glvis as-is, enough to where it would at least cut the time it takes from 8 hours to something more thinkable, say 3 hours?
If not, then I suppose a spectrum angle clipper would be the best way to go?

[DaniJ]

Without looking at the implementation its not really possible to advise how the GLPVIS algorithm could be sped up, sorry. I don't have the time to dedicate to that right now.

If someone could paraphrase the logic of the implementation I might be able to offer advice on potential ways to improve it.

[Rellik_jmd]

Sounds like a problem with the plasma conduits. Are the phase-coils out of alignment?

[MR_ROCKET]

The alignment is fine, they just need charged up and unfortunately we don't have a charging unit.

[Rellik_jmd]

Tallaxians steal our coil charger again? Bastards!

[MR_ROCKET]

Oh I know, it's always those guys!!!

[iori]

Tallaxians are goddamn annoying

[MR_ROCKET]

Yes..
Anyways, back on topic. Smites most recent screenshot subsectors and segs (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_subsectors.jpeg). ;)

[metroid88]

would it be possible to use plug-in renderers so anyone could code his/her own and the legacy team only had to worry (right now) about releasing legacy 2.0 in software mode and made it compatible with the old 1.4x renderer as well i think it was very good the way it was... (it can be obviously get improved but I really want legacy 2.0 now *bawl*

[smite-meister]

would it be possible to use plug-in renderers so anyone could code his/her own and the legacy team only had to worry (right now) about releasing legacy 2.0 in software mode and made it compatible with the old 1.4x renderer as well i think it was very good the way it was...
Technically yes, but if anyone really wants to code a renderer for Legacy, we would prefer him/her joining the Legacy team proper :)
The 1.4x OpenGL renderer does its job, but has a number of issues especially in the way it does dynamical lighting and transparency (our two major issues with the new renderer right now). Also, the interface for the old OpenGL renderer had become incredibly cryptic due to backwards compatibility with the original Glide renderer (which we ditched right away), so a rewrite really was in order.

[Calimaw]

Oh lordy, a new Legacy port!

Legacy was one (if not) the first ports I've used :)

To be honest I thought you guys had died off, glad to see you back!
The new stuff you guys are doing looks really, really, really good.
I've tried Vavoom, and DENG for doing some co-op with HeXen, it was a 'no go', either I'm missing something, or something is missing else where, so I really hope it works on Legacy2 :D

By the way, I heard there may be problems assosiated with weapons in co-op, if players are different classes the weapons may only be spawned for the host.

PS: Sorry for the long post, but how is the sound engine? Will sounds be replacable and played at higher quality? I do alot of audio work, big Doom fanatic, I've even the source samples used in Doom and Hexen (royalty free sources, non ID/Ravensoft origin)

[Aliotroph?]

The sounds in DOOM have always been replaceable. :) Legacy even let you add new ones for scripted stuff already (as did just about every other port). As long as the sound works better in Legacy 2 (which it already does) I'm happ. :)

[Calimaw]

Well what I meant was more towards the similar of how people are doing hi-res textures, there would be higher fidelity sounds.

It may be something I would do once I get a few things settled, attempting another HL2 mod with a friend (for the umpteenth time, with different people).

I'll also be going to school at the Vancouver Film School in May, for computer audio design, if it doesnt devour my time I'm sure I'd be able to present an even more solid set of sounds that does Doom some justice.

I've worked on CodeImp's BloodMasters game, which can be found at www.bloodmasters.com, you are all probably familiar with CodeImp. :)

Smite-Meister, you're doing a good thing :D

[metroid88]

Is it possible to make a hi - res pack of graphics but I don't know if legacy is going to support that… because in the old 1.4x all the textures you use with a high res will just look incredibly big instead if high detailed… so I’d like to know if the legacy team is going to work on that...

[MR_ROCKET]

Hi-res textures will work in Legacy2 but I'v only had the chance to test them in wad format using NTEXTURE and texture images in raw PNG format. Nevertheless they will work. ;)

Question to the Legacy2 devs.
Exl made a recent win32 build for us to test out and well there were several issues mostly having to do with Opengl render and thing transparency.
Do you guys think that if Exl makes a new build, a lot of the issues will be fixed now after recent updates to the code? Would now be a better time?

[MR_ROCKET]

Also:
TrueType fonts using SDL_ttf, more Unicode support.
What's this look like?

[metroid88]

hey what has happened with this forum... long time without screenshots i've just seen a december 2007 alpha release and i would like to see what's new here...
some Screenshots XD

[MR_ROCKET]

Freak'n Tallaxians..

[metroid88]

hey I'd really appreciate that you post a new pack of screenshots because we are runnin' the last alpha release kind of blinded because we don't really know what's new and the legacy wiki doesn't explain us much... XD

[MR_ROCKET]

Well for now and most recent screenshot I'v made is this:
http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/current_map1.png
Where there's a 3 level 3dfloor building in the background, and in the foreground is a custom console and HUD weapon replacement and HUD inventory stuff I was working on, all done in Legacy2 public alpha, console shows the resolution. ;)

I was also wondering how things are going and is Pate MIA?

[Aliotroph?]

Oooo, shiny. Now make that map more shadowy. :p

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah that was the plan :P, well one of them..I'll have to find that unfinished map and add some hi-res textures too. :D
I like how it's easy to add hi-res stuff to legacy2. ;)
Just for example, you can slap a 1300x1600 flat in your map "if wanted", center the given sector area/or big room, to the flat and geez man you have a terrain. :D
Same with walls, or huge windows. There's really a lot you can do with that, other than a bit of load time, which is where the "if wanted" fits in. :P
I need some info on the shader system if it's in any release yet?

[metroid88]

Hey man is there any tutorials on how to do that kind of stuff (with the textures) or if there isn't, can you make one?

[MR_ROCKET]

Well currently the only quickest way to get editing info on the new Legacy 2.0 is to go straight to the SVC docs by either searching for doomlegacy at sf.net or going to the Legacy Wiki and using the link there. Here's (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/editing.html?content-type=text%2Fplain#textures) the editing link about textures.
Using NTEXTURE is pretty easy..here's the low down and a short texted based tutorial for now :P

NTEXTURE textures are the most advanced and versatile
type of textures Doom Legacy has to offer.
They are defined in a plaintext lump named NTEXTURE.
It contains any number of texture definitions, which look like this:

// this is a comment
texture MYNAME1 // the texture name
{
data LUMPNAME; // name of the lump containing the image
worldsize X Y; // the world size into which the texture is scaled
offset DX DY; // optional internal offsets for the texture
}

So, you make some PNG texture images and then load them as "raw" with an editor like XWE.
~lets make the actual texture image size 512x512, save it as a PNG and then we'll let NTEXTURE scale it down for us..
And then you make a new plain text Lump using something like XWE, name it NTEXTURE.
And then type the above script in about your hi-res texture. eg, the texture name, it's lump name, worldsize/scale, and offset - if needed..
Here's more of a normal way of looking at it:

///comment: this is my new "awesome" hi-res 512x512 PNG texture that NTEXTURE is scaling to 256x256 for me wee!
texture MYTEXTURE
{
data MYTEXTURE;
worldsize 256 256;
offset 0 0;
}
Save it, and then add the required texture name(s) to your map, floor or wall texture name.
That's about it. ;)

If you want to just replace a texture with a new hi-res texture using NTEXTURE, just change the texture name in the NTEXTURE lump to the original texture name, eg:

texture FLAT23

and every original texture with the name of FLAT23 will be replaced with your texture.

[metroid88]

hey man that's pretty nice, thanks...
hey a question: is the shaders part of legacy 2.0 done yet?, cause i'd really like to code what we can see on walls XD, and if it's done, where can I find the docs?

[MR_ROCKET]

When it comes to shaders, there's nothing to work with yet as far as I know.
Smite posted some info about them here at the forum, but that's about it, nothing in a release yet.
The current state of Legacy2 is alpha still, so some things may change without notice as well.

[smite-meister]

Also:
TrueType fonts using SDL_ttf, more Unicode support.
What's this look like?
Currently like this (http://users.tkk.fi/~vberghol/doom/Legacy_TrueType_Unicode.png). (a png instead of a jpeg, since I wanted the text crisp and clear :))
At first I tried using some chinese characters in the player name, but the font I was using didn't contain them so I got stupid empty boxes instead :(

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah well that looks pretty good considering the resolution. :P
Heh since you got me messing with NTEXTURE stuff awhile back, I'v been saving just about everything as png's.

[MR_ROCKET]

Here's how that hi-res HUD face I'v been working on looks in Legacy2.0 just in case anyone was wondering.
http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/legacy2_stuff.htm

Also the CONS_BACK/console background. Anyone like it?

[Heidi]

Well, I've never seen a fanmade hud that looks as good as the original, let alone better, and this is not the exception ;)

I guess this is not the final version?

Anyways, here's why:

1. Background is too plain and too dark.

2. Characters seem to have been placed on the hud by a drunk because the distance between these and the borders that separate the different sections of the hud, is not always the same.

3. Skull keys are the best example of that.

4. It basically looks like the original. I can't see a real improvement or even enough differences to justify it's existence.

Sorry to be an ass but you asked for it :D

The console background is ok though. nothing fancy but not ugly either.

[sLydE]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am anxiously awaiting version 1.0 of Heidi's fan made HUD.

...oh, wait.

[MR_ROCKET]

waa! :(

Alrighty then..
What exactly are you comparing it to? have you even ran the alpha? ~ if so which version and what res?
Run the alpha in opengl @ 1600x1300 and then have another look at the screen shots, I'm sure you'l see some major differences in clearity..

It's actually version1..first trial version to test with the second to last alpha build..
And the keys in the shot don't line up with the statusbar because I threw it in as a temp..
Basically testing things out, I'm not trying to win a pot of gold here or anything Heidi.
The shot is more focused on the HUD face in my last post if ya read it btw :P

and No I didn't ask for your ass, you just handed it to me. :D

Anyways, the statusbar I barrowed from Doomsday for the shot, that's why the key's don't line up. but actually made a statusbar just for this since then.

[Aliotroph?]

Weird. I'm not used to being able to read HUD text without squinting! :D You've got way more patience than I'll ever have with drawing if you're willing to sit there and smash pixels to make that face go hi-res. :)

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah I spent some time on that face and I can't stand doing animation stuff heh, freak'n 42 frames I think..
The face is done for the most part, well still could stand some cleaning up around the edges but I'v just been too busy lately..

[jester]

I reckon the best HUD would just be a ZDoom style one, but with the mugshot as the health icon in the bottom left. Kinda like in the screenshots of Quake 2, on the back of the box. You can see what I mean here (pretty small but you can still make it out):

http://www.mobygames.com/game/quake-ii/cover-art/gameCoverId,70156/

Very neat and tidy, especially with the mugshot on a square coloured in the player's colour. Sometimes when games have a mugshot on a fullscreen, they get rid of the background square and it looks more untidy as a result.

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah but we want it to look like Doom not like Quake2.

[jester]

Well, yeah it'd be cool to have both. I didn't mean to shun the new stuff you're doing here. It's cool that you're coming up with new HUD-related stuff, especially the high-resolution mugshot frames.

[sLydE]

While I agree that a simplified HUD is a good idea, it should most definitely be an option, rather than the Hi-Res default.

[killplaystation]

Like the hi res hud, always liked the simplified one. more room on the screen
what is the latest alpha release that i can test out?

[MR_ROCKET]

http://www.legacywiki.net/index.php/Main_Page
Here you will find the most recent SVN builds of the alpha.
The February build seems to run better under Opengl, even though both will be good in software mode and the Dec. build will have some things added and fixed, there will be some issues with sprites etc in Opengl with this build.
So if you want to check things out in Opengl, I suggest the Feb. build for now and run at the highest res, remember this is an alpha.
*Note, in the current builds Do Not enable bots.

[jetflock]

If something more concrete is developed not too long after ndcp2 finishes i would like to create a bunch of crap for it. quality crap. hope legacy shines before i "retire", lol.

[MR_ROCKET]

The Links work Smite, I wonder if someone will compile a new build for us :D

[MR_ROCKET]

Scratch that, Exl have you seen Smite? I'm getting worried..
And where the fork is Rellik?
Mystik's in town, wonder he's got any plains to experiment. :P

While I agree that a simplified HUD is a good idea, it should most definitely be an option, rather than the Hi-Res default.
Yeah it's either run it with or without.:P



MR.ROCKET had a cool test map for that. It worked very well most of the time. So, I would says that's something that can be fixed by compliant level design ;)

That must have been Plexydome 2 lol..it was an extrem psychedelic 3d floor map for its time. :D Ebola made some really neat stuff with the coronas etc for legacy ;) there are some really fancy legacy wads out there now days though, the problem with legacy2 is compiling a bsp for all those maps for opengl. If I remember right, its really slow.

[Aliotroph?]

He always has plans for that as long as his cute doesn't keep him off the computer. hehehe

I haven't seen Rellik in ages, and last time he was online he didn't have time to talk. I know not of Smite as I never see him anywhere but here.

[MR_ROCKET]

Last I heard, Smite was relocating, however I did notice the GPL update at the time of the Raven annoucment about a month ago..
Just wondering whos waiting on what and whats going on.:P

[MR_ROCKET]

Here is the TODO (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/TODO.html?content-type=text%2Fplain) list and I have noticed some changes in there.

[Aliotroph?]

And here's said TODO list (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/TODO.html) in readable form.

Now we play the waiting game.

[MR_ROCKET]

Oh damn I always forget to take that part off the link. :D
The other night I started on another map, it's Legacy2 compliant with 3dfloors and hi-res textures. Shortly after I e-mail'd the legacy team about it in hopes for a reply here.

As legacy2 is, it seems like it would help to be uncapped frame rate in this version.
Though I'd imagine they'd like to finish opengl and do some optimizing first.
It's a really nice port with lots of features, I'd really like to do some beta testing soon!
The sooner it hits this stage the sooner more will be willing to help out.
There are tons of mappers and modders out there that would love to get their hands dirty in some legacy2 editing.

[Mystic]

Im champing at the bit myself. I guess the guys have been borrowed by real life for a while, lets hope they get homesick for the Legacy community and get it finished soon.

By the way I like the HUD stuff you showed off with last page, I know what you mean about doing animated sprites, its a pain in the arse so very much appreciated when someone else does it for us.

My 'cute' is starting to ease up about the time I spend on here and mapping, just as long as I remember to drop everything and give her a cuddle and a grope every now and then I should be ok. She actually enjoys those threads in 'artwork' where folk post their scenery photographs and artwork so she is slowly coming around.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah thats's good, and let her know it's fine if she wants to post up some art too etc.
Everyone always likes to see new stuff.

Just checked sf, looks like smites been doing some updates! ;)
I donno why he hasn't posted lately though.

[g6672D]

I might have a go at building this later.

[DooMAD]

Cool, send it my way if you do. The last version on the wiki is from way back in December last year.

[MR_ROCKET]

Well this isn't a Legacy2.0 shot but I was messing around in Linux and thought, damn it I wanna play some Legacy.
So here it is (http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/misc_images/snapshot1.png), even hosted a server. :P

[sLydE]

KDE, blegh. :P (to each his own, that's why we have choices)

I have had a lot of issues attempting to play Legacy on my Ubuntu box. I get the itch every now and then, and then just get frustrated and move on.

[MR_ROCKET]

Lol I hear ya, at first I put Vector Linux on, and it looked neat but was missing some things, then I installed Knoppix, which worked for the most part and is in the screenshot with KDE reference.
Then I thought I'd try out PCLinuxOS, which I like but it's limited, unless I'v over looked something the damn thing doesn't even have rpm on it. Heh now I'm thinking of switching back to Knoppix or the latest Ubuntu. what would you suggest?
I'm guessing Ubuntu, or which ever already has most of its packages.

[sLydE]

Then I thought I'd try out PCLinuxOS, which I like but it's limited, unless I'v over looked something the damn thing doesn't even have rpm on it.
PCLinuxOS uses APT for package management, instead of RPM. You'll find the same deal on Ubuntu, which I think you would probably like better.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ok sorry to turn the screenshots into a Linux OS topic for the moment but I think I like the openSUSE OS, newest version best so far. Even though you need a little faster system to run it on. I dig it so far, however just got it and downloading some apps,games etc and see how that turns out. so I guess I am more for KDE..is that bad? :D
Ok back on topic. :P

[Mystic]

yeah right, like anyone can remember what the topic was.

wait a minute, Legacy 2 screenshots. I wonder if the guys are ever going to release it.

[MR_ROCKET]

Here's the stable Windows Alpha 5 (http://www.teamhellspawn.com/legacyalpha/doomlegacy2_19feb2007.zip) version Feb 2007.
If you check it out, you'll have to run a bsp and glvis on your iwad, and dont run bots in this version.
I post this one because all the sprites are partly transparent in the Dec build.
I have yet to compile it and run it on Linux myself though.
And that's a big if, I'd imagine the framerate would be flawless on Linux and maybe even the BSP build time might be faster?
Hard to say, but one of the things that made Legacy famous among all the various first to haves, is all the different OS versions that itcould run on. Including windows. And that's apart of one of the big slow downs, there's no new windows version.

For those of you that would like to compile Legacy2 with the most recent SVN additions, go here (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/compiling.html) for the Legacy2 Compiling info and links to the needed libraries, and download the Legacy2 source (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/) use GNU tarball (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk.tar.gz?view=tar) and compile it in either Linux or Windows.

[sLydE]

For those of you that would like to compile Legacy2 with the most recent SVN additions, go here (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/compiling.html) for the Legacy2 Compiling info and links to the needed libraries, and download the Legacy2 source (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/) use GNU tarball (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk.tar.gz?view=tar) and compile it in either Linux or Windows.
Is all this in the wiki?

[MR_ROCKET]

Sort of but not directly yes. :D
Should it be there, I dont know..yet

And you know what, scratch that I put Ubuntu back on.:p

[TheDruid]

So what's the status on these pictures? *caclaf*

[MR_ROCKET]

Hey Druid how the heck have you been!
They are all still in development afaik. ;)

[TheDruid]

Hey Druid how the heck have you been!
They are all still in development afaik. ;)

Hey man, I have been doing pretty good. Been crazy busy with school/work/life but I occasionally come by and see what's going on here. I want myself some Legacy 2. =( haha. I do like the progress that's been made so far though, nice job to everyone that's contributed!!!

What about yourself Rocket, how have you been?

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah well, ok I suppose under the circumstances.
There's been some r/l things that have got me down, but I'v been trying to hang in there. :\

[Tea Monster]

Did anything ever come of this? Did it get released?

[MR_ROCKET]

Well thanks man, things just havent been the same since my dad past away about 10 months ago.
But I'v been trying to hang in there.

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah pretty much, I knew him for 37 years, he was 76.

Anyways, isn't this a Legacy2 screenshots thread?
And, long time no see Druid. :)

[Tea Monster]

erm, where are the actuall screens? Those links on page 1 and 2 are dead.

[Aliotroph?]

Guess that means there are none. LOL That's funny.

[MR_ROCKET]

Smite relocated afaik, his host for the screenshots did too.
So I guess you'll have to make your own. ;)

[Jive]

I used the stable Windows Alpha 5 version Feb 2007. but I can't play using OpenGl mode. It's still the hardware mode... :(
I must have forgotten something... Maybe to put the opengl.dll file within the folder?

[Jive]

Allo, someone at home?

[Mystic]

its the weekend, there is never anyone here at weekends.

/looks below

OK I stand corrected.

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah yeah, you may have to manually change it to opengl from with-in the config.
Here's my configs if that helps: http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/L2_configs.zip
Do's: Run glbsp and glvis on your iwads.
Dont's: Don't run bot's right now, they will eat up all your memory forcing you to reboot.

That said:
@echo off
legacy -opengl


Here's the HUD add-on that I made a while back. http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/Legacy2_hud.zip
To see all of it you'l have to go into the Options menu>Video and change the Screen size. For some reason + and - currently doesnt change the screen size by default like it should.
@echo off
legacy -opengl -file Legacy2_hud2.wad


*Note, currently the HUD additions will only work right in Opengl.

[Jive]

I still don't have opengl...
graphic card: nvidia Gforce 7100 GS

[MR_ROCKET]

I have a Geforce 8400 GS 512 pci-x card and have opengl.
Also had opengl with my 6800 oc back when I made that stuff.

You really should have opengl Jive, I dont know what you wouldn't.
Surely your drivers and dx versions are up to date?

If your running in a low res it may not look like it's opengl though, try running Legacy2 in the highest res possible.

[DooMAD]

It's probably the GLBSP and GLVIS thing.

[Jive]

I don't know what is happening...
I used GLBSP and GLVIS on my iwads and on the concerned pwad, without effect for OpenGl.
I'll find what is wrong, as usually. ;)

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah you’v always been pretty good and spotting bugs etc. to squish Jive.
The Alpha does require a little manual config’ing though. You might have to run it in windowed mode by manually editing the cfg's.
You wont see any corona's btw they haven't been implemented afaik yet, so the only way to really tell is by (running in a really hi-res) because software looks so darn good by it's self, and then check out some NTEXTURE stuff. :P

[MR_ROCKET]

I posted a small news article at my site about Legacy2.0:
http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/main.htm

[R1c0]

I was wondering to know more about the Legacy, since it's not updated in September of 2006, I never had so much info.
I read something about the dev of Legacy 2.0 from the SVN, is that true? How it's going? There will be any final release?
Please, I wait some answers and if possible any blog, site, that is being updating with infos (:

Read my signature 8D

[DooMAD]

It has been a bit quiet lately, but the last SVN commit was 10 days ago, so at least development is still progressing.

I don't know what's going on with Legacy's homepage. Aside from the lack of updates, it's not even going to be there much longer since Newdoom won't be hosting sites anymore after June/July or something like that.

[Heidi]

Damn it's been ages since the last 2.0 screenshot. Does anybody have something showing off new/re-enabled features?

[MR_ROCKET]

Not until a new Windows build is compiled for us, and that's basically what I noticed the recent Doc update was about.
How to compile Doom Legacy 2.0 (SDL version) (http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/compiling.html)

[Wad'a'Holic]

I hate to say this but I have been away from these forums for about 4-5 years now, and I have just returned and theres NOTHING new at all. Zit. Look at the last update on the news page. Whats going on? Is this port dead?

[DooMAD]

It's hibernating, not dead. *bliss*

[Mr. Chris]

It shouldn't be taking 5 years for a bloody rewrite!

[Mystic]

its not dead if we still use it and design for it. Im a patient soul, I can wait.

[Aliotroph?]

I hate to say this but I have been away from these forums for about 4-5 years now, and I have just returned and theres NOTHING new at all. Zit. Look at the last update on the news page. Whats going on? Is this port dead?

Then go dig through the forums. There really was a lot of progress in that time. We did a lot of GL testing at one point. That was entertaining when the engine would decide it didn't want to cache textures and we had a world of white polygons to roam! :)

[MR_ROCKET]

Yeah, there's a lot that has been done in the past few years but it's hard to see as Smite and Pate's host where they were posting screenshots isn't there currently. ~ since the re-location.
Although if you look around you'll see some screenshots I posted about hi-res textures etc.
One of the newest things you might notice was this:
shader parallax_mapping
{
vertex_source "parallax_vs.glsl";
fragment_source "parallax_fs.glsl";
}

material BROWN1
{
texture_unit
{
texture "actual_texture.png";
worldsize 100 200;
filtering LLL; // use trilinear filtering
}

texture_unit
{
texture "corresponding_normalbump_map.png";
worldsize 100 200;
}

shader_ref parallax_mapping;
}
Which is a type of 3d texture shader script, something like bumpmap textures, but I have yet to test it without a new Legacy2.0 Windows release.

[DooMAD]

its not dead if we still use it and design for it. Im a patient soul, I can wait.

Exactly. :)

I'm still working on Expanse. Progress is slow as ever, but still going.
Latest editor shot here (http://www.teamhellspawn.com/expanse_may1st.gif). (new and updated areas in yellow)
Screenshots here (http://www.teamhellspawn.com/screenshot2.htm).

[MR_ROCKET]

That's going to be a kick-ass map, I can't wait to play it DooMAD.

[Monkey]

What's up, Rocketman? Long time no see :P
BTW, what's DooMAD?

[MR_ROCKET]

Hey sup Monkey, you too man. ~ there's another thread going on and they're wondering where ya are. (http://forums.newdoom.com/showthread.php?p=553217#post553217) heh
This (http://forums.newdoom.com/member.php?u=567) is DooMAD.

[DooMAD]

Hi Monkey.

[Monkey]

Wow, I;m retarded. I must have read it like DooMad was a port or something. I know DooMad is a dude. Indeed, sometimes my own stupidity impresses me :P

[DooMAD]

It seems I'm getting far too close to the SEGS limit in 1.4x with my map (cheers to Exl for figuring out the problem). I'm hoping I can release it for the current version when it's done, since 2.0 seems like it might be a little while coming. Could well be splitting it into two maps so I can still fit everything in, heh.

[DaniJ]

Are you guys seriously just waiting on someone to roll a binary of the current svn version of Legacy? If so (and its OK by devs) I would be happy to roll one for ya (just tell me which branch/tag/revision). Do note that I won't be doing any support of any kind however :D

[DooMAD]

Would be great if you could, we haven't had a new one for a while. I have no idea what branch or tag means in this context, this SVN stuff is a bit of a mystery to me, heh. I guess we want the latest revision. Thanks in advance. :)

[MR_ROCKET]

Hey DaniJ it would be awesome of you if you wouldn't mind doing that, and I doubt that Smite would mind as Exl was the guy that compiled us a Legacy 2.0 SDL Windows binary from time to time, but we or I haven't heard from him for some time now and since Smites relocation he hasn't posted on the forum either. However there has been some updates in the SVN trunk directory recently.
Of course I don't speak for the Legacy team.

But here yah are, this is what we're looking at if it helps:
http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/?sortby=date#dirlist
http://doomlegacy.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/doomlegacy/legacy/trunk/docs/compiling.html

Note* I have no idea the current condition of things.

[Mr. Chris]

You guys have been busy with Legacy buy havn't bothered to update the Legacy news page in 3 years? :o

Some periodic updates on it would be nice or more, like the way ZDoom does it.

[DaniJ]

I was waiting on contact from one of the devs before actually doing anything but I understand that may not happen. I'll hang on a bit longer but if I've heard nothing in a weeks time I'll then look into what it will take to build Legacy 2.0

[DooMAD]

I sent messages to Hurdler and Smite about a month ago regarding the status of the Legacy homepage and what's happening with it after NewDoom ceases hosting, but haven't heard from them yet. They're probably both just busy with work stuff and real life.

[Mr. Chris]

If they were still involved deeply, I am pretty sure they could at least update the homepage during the nighttime on a weekend.

[MR_ROCKET]

Mr.Chris, about the site, if I remember right it's between Hurdler, Rellik and Planky.
If they, or at least one of them hold the yellow key card to the ftp host, then they have access. But may not potentially need access unless the Legacy team has relayed it through UAC headquarters...
Story told, and while the door stays locked, Rellik and Planky lay low in the lobby playing aruo space foozball on company time. Rellik seems to have the only fazecoiler/recharging unit on the base. While this is happening, and has for a long time I may add, Smite and Pate are trapped in the red key room with no recharging unit.. I dont know the rest of it, as I havn't contact either since the power down some years back. From what I hear though, they are trying to rig something up.
Again, Rellik seems to have the only fazecoiler on base.

Something like that, isn't it DooMAD?

[DooMAD]

Yes... something like that... ;)

[Zarkon]

Hi all! I like Legacy very much! Is Legacy is still in developement? I want 4 players split-screen game in Legacy. Thanks!

[The Undertaker]

Doom3D (http://www.doomworld.com/doom3d) has 4 player splitscreen.

[Zarkon]

The Undertaker,Thank you very much! I also played ChocolateDoom - it's allows play 4 players. :)

[MR_ROCKET]

Hey, it seems since about a year ago now Nvidia has done something with their drivers having to do with OpenGL rendering both Quake2 and Doom Legacy useless in OpenGL mode.
Sometime before or during the driver 191.07 version this has happened.
Is there anyway a work around could be made to fix this problem?
I know you guys won’t be doing anything about Quake2, but does this mean the OpenGL code will need to be updated in 1.4x?

Thanks!
~ Rocket

[Graf_Zahl]

Quake 2 crashes due to some age-old problem that has broken far too many sloppily coded OpenGL applications: It tries to copy the extension string into a static buffer that's too small.

I can't say if this is the cause for Legacy, too, because the code can't be compiled with MSVC so I can't debug it.

[Aliotroph?]

That sucks. MSVC used to be the Legacy building tool of choice.

[Graf_Zahl]

Really?

I've never seen source that compiled with other things than MinGW. The bad thing about that is, although I can compile it I can't use any decent debugger on it (And no, I don't consider GDB 'decent'.)

I think this was a result of the Anti-XP idiocy the Legacy team did many years ago ('we do not support an OS that requires product activation.')

[MR_ROCKET]

What ever the case may be, I wonder if there's something in this guys source that could help?:
http://kmq2.quakedev.com/

[MR_ROCKET]

Ah hah! It looks like we have Legacy in Opengl after all!
It's not the driver or the game engine, it's Nvidia's control panel disabling some of the older opengl extensions from my understanding.
I decided to have a look at the app settings in Nvidias control panel and it seems to allow the engine to run in Opengl as long as you add the app and then force most settings to application controlled, instead of Nvidias defaults for it.
Here's a shot of Toxicfluff's toxdm1 level in Legacy1.4x
http://home.comcast.net/~mrrocket/legacy_stuff/toxicflufs_map1.png