It's time for a simple question...

[Ganryu]

That probably demands a complicated answer...

I'm working on my own custom campaign for Hexen (i'm using Doomsday), but quite frankly i need some new enemies to this thing as i find Hexen's monster set a bit lacking. Doing this would also add some uniqueness to my campaign.

Sooo... Exactly how complicated would this be ad how would i go about to do it?

The first thing i'm looking for is to get the Weredragon and Disciple of D'sparil from Heretic into my campaign. I know how to rip the sprites and that stuff... I know some basic coding (and that which i don't know, i can probably figure out)...

[+Acyclitor+]

if your using ZDoom or GZDoom you could create new monsters via DECORATE (http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=Decorate)

[PumpkinSmasher]

Without using a port, you can't add new monster, but you can replace monsters.

If you replace the sprites, you can then do some editing to the way the monster acts using dehacked.

[doomjedi]

I'd advise you to make this project on zDoom, which will allow you to add monsters, script monsters and weapons from scratch, invent new cool inventory and much more.

[Ganryu]

Thanks for the quick replies, people! :)

I've heard this DECORATE thing mentioned before. Exactly what is it?

[DaniJ]

Yes, new monsters can be created for jHexen under Doomsday. This is done by creating/editing DED definitions and creating new sprites etc.

See the Doomsday Engine Wiki (DEW) for more info (link in my sig).

[doomjedi]

Thanks for the quick replies, people! :)

I've heard this DECORATE thing mentioned before. Exactly what is it?

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/DECORATE
http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=DECORATE
http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=ACS

[Ganryu]

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/DECORATE
http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=DECORATE
http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=ACS

Thanks! That sounds mighty impressive. Doesn't look too complicated either.

I've done some Duke 3d scripting back in the days (without much documentation available) and this seems a bit similar. Mmmm... Now to make those sprites...

I've been looking up this whole DED thing too, but all information i find seems to assume that you already know what it is :(

Edit: Now that i've taken a look at DED it does not look like something i want to use. It seems very difficult to use, the documentation is really bad, and it doesn't seem like you can create your own custom attacks in it (which i would prefer).

Decorate really looks like just what i need, but zDoom keeps crashing on me... And i mean crashing as in totally locking up my computer :(

[doomjedi]

Agree with you about the deds. they are very limited and uncomfortable.
2 most popular script languages for Doom are:

1. zDoom ACS/Decorate (for zDoom port)- great combination of great power and user-friendly/easy to use/write/implement. Best choice, as zDoom is much more popular/used than Vavoom.

2. VavoomC (for Vavoom port):
http://vavoom.heretichexen.com/wiki/index.php?title=VavoomC
http://vavoom.heretichexen.com/wiki/index.php?title=Editing
http://www.vavoom-engine.com/

VavoomC (C for Vavoom) is much more powerfull, but for more advanced and experienced programmers, not user-friendly. But the good thing is that you can do there not "virtually anything" (like in zDoom ACS) but ANYTHING, but I don't think you'll mind the difference. Vavoom is less popular port.

[DaniJ]

the documentation is really badIn what way(s) can we improve it? All help is appreciated.

[+Acyclitor+]

also in the future ZDoom will be implementing a new script language, DoomScript. from what i've heard it will be something akin to VavoomC

[DaniJ]

"DoomScript" has been coming for at least 6 years that I know of. I don't see how the non-existence of said, hypothetical scripting language in Zdoom, is any help. Considering:
I'm working on my own custom campaign for Hexen (i'm using Doomsday)

[doomjedi]

What we suggested, was to change the port he is making his project on - that's the connection to the "help". Doomsday is not the best port for modding, especially when you need new enemies and scripts, and as I'm involved with both zDoom and Doomsday projects - I feel I can compare. Doomsday is better (visually and option select/deselect-wise) for Doom, custom Doom maps and such.
zDoom is the best port for modding (at least for now) as I see it. It's much more powerful (scripting-wise) than Doomsday, and yet much more user friendly than Vavoom (VavoomC). Perfect balance of "powerful versus user-friendly". But that's my personal opinion.

[Ganryu]

Dani, i'll respond to your request soon.

And thanks to everyone for keeping this discussion alive.

What we suggested, was to change the port he is making his project on - that's the connection to the "help". Doomsday is not the best port for modding, especially when you need new enemies and scripts, and as I'm involved with both zDoom and Doomsday projects - I feel I can compare. Doomsday is better (visually and option select/deselect-wise) for Doom, custom Doom maps and such.
zDoom is the best port for modding (at east for now) as I see it. It's much more powerful (scripting-wise) than Doomsday, and yet much more user friendly than Vavoom (VavoomC). Perfect balance of "powerful versus user-friendly". But that's my personal opinion.

Yeah. I'm thinking of shifting over so i use zDoom for modding and Doomsday for when i just feel like playing the games like they should be.

The problem is that... zDoom keeps crashing and i have no idea what is causing it. I don't get a message or anything, the whole computer just locks up so i have to use hard reset. There is no error message or anything.

[doomjedi]

Donnow, zDoom works pefectly for me. Try zDoom forums for support

[LordRaven]

Use decorate, Find the default scripts of the original monsters and edit them rather than creating new from scratch

Zdoom wiki should have everything you need

[doomjedi]

No need for editing the original monsters.
As I recall, there is a monster resourse wad with examples of somewhat cooler scripted monsters.
I have the WAD btw.

[picklebro]

Although I will certainly concur that many features of doomsday are under-documented, I don't think monster-creation is one of those pieces nor do I see that its hard or limiting. I"m certainly not trying to get in a flamewar but it seems, gentlemen, that you are unfamiliar with doomsday and are familiar with zdooom so therefore you strongly suggest that zdoom is better.

I'm not here to argue one way or the other. In fact, I'm going to grant that doomsday is under-documented and in the same breath argue that which engine a person decides to use should carefully be considered from all angles before such a decision is made and this can only be more true if one is considering changing ports mid-stream. My suggestion? Think very carefully before implementing the changes. Decide, " Should I use Doomsday, Zdoom (or a variant) Legacy, etc.?" Use information gathered from all sources around things that impact your mod such as "does it help me do everything I want to do in the mod?" Is there community support? Is there a player-base that's interested in my project? and others you can think of.

Hopefully that's helpful in some way.

Regards,
PiCKleBro

[doomjedi]

Well, it's obviously that if he wants Doomsday 3d/graphic/visual features, he'll need to stay on Doomsday. So he needs to think what are his priorities for the project, and find a port that fits them the most.
I'm not for the flamewar either, I just know that in the Doomsday project I'm involved in, some features that are pretty easy to implement (and aready implemented in parallel project on zDoom, like side-opening doors) are still not implemented, and coders say Doomsday doesn't even support them yet, or don't have an idea how to implement those. I still think ACS is much stronger than DEDs.

[picklebro]

Doom-jedi you do raise some valid points and although I've not used ACS, it is possibly more powerful than DEDs for some things. I gotta be honest with you, I'd love to see all the projects come together in some sort of symposium and create standardized methodology for everything - heck, I'd love to see all the ports come together and create one mega-port, but I know from a coding and personality perspective that will never happen. :) Who knows - more ports are born every day, building on the code of the ports before them. One day maybe a port will be born that supports 3d floors and 3d models (and updated textures) with great ease, has powerful and extremely easy scripting (maybe lua?) and a wealthy dedicated team of people who do nothing but sit around and improve it all day. :D Then all our doom dreams would come true!!!

[doomjedi]

Well, I agree with you. Till then, we'll continue to use each port for what he is best at :)

[DaniJ]

I still think ACS is much stronger than DEDs.ACS is a scripting language. DED is not.

[Ganryu]

Although I will certainly concur that many features of doomsday are under-documented, I don't think monster-creation is one of those pieces nor do I see that its hard or limiting. I"m certainly not trying to get in a flamewar but it seems, gentlemen, that you are unfamiliar with doomsday and are familiar with zdooom so therefore you strongly suggest that zdoom is better.

Actually no. That's not the issue here. I've read the DEW about DEDs and i've read the zDoom wiki about Decorate.

The DEW is clearly lacking, i'll give you an example:

* State {
ID = "BAR_STND2"
Frame = 1
Action = "A_Look"
Next state = "BAR_STND"
}

The above code makes sense even if i haven't attempted to write one single DED myself yet. Most of it can be guessed with experience ("frame" is the amount of frames in the animation, "action" is what the thing will do during this state, ("Next state" = one this state is over it will jump to the BAR_STND state etc. etc)

It makes perfect sense, yes. Then i realized there had to be a whole lot of actions, yes? I mean it would make sense to have an index of actions. I look through the DEW but find nothing. So i decide to search for "A_Look" in order to find the index.

Well... I get one hit. And that one hit is the barrel monster article.

Damn i must leave the computer. I'll finish this later.

[Vermil]

Correction ;), "frame" is the sprite to use that state ;) xxxxAX = 0 xxxxBX = 1 etc

I would guess this information and a list of actions is not on the DEW because they aren't Doomsday specific things.

Still I agree it might be useful if the DEW had a list of actions. I can't add it myself because the user buttons are messed up for me (I don't get an "edit" button among other things).

In the mean time, this may help: www.darkocean.info/Actions.txt

[Ganryu]

Correction ;), "frame" is the sprite to use that state ;) xxxxAX = 0 xxxxBX = 1 etc

I would guess this information and a list of actions is not on the DEW because they aren't Doomsday specific things.

Still I agree it might be useful if the DEW had a list of actions. I can't add it myself because the user buttons are messed up for me (I don't get an "edit" button among other things).

In the mean time, this may help: www.darkocean.info/Actions.txt

I see my guessing was wrong then :P

Anyway. Thanks. Still it looks as if i will have to move my modding project over to zDoom while keeping Doomsday for playing the games the classic way. The gameplay experience in Doomsday is superior to any other port i've tried.

[DaniJ]

Thats a great resource Vermil, where'd you get it? It would indeed be a good thing to put on the DEW. If the author gives permission I'll create an article.

[Vermil]

Thats a great resource Vermil, where'd you get it? It would indeed be a good thing to put on the DEW. If the author gives permission I'll create an article.

It's mine :p

I have no problem with it being put on the DEW. Indeed I was hoping someone would because I can't until that template issue with the DEW we discussed is sorted out.