The end is nigh?

[Nomad]

http://ignoranceisntbliss.com/

Watch. Try to ignore the background in the video, and pay attention to the words. They really should have toned that down a lot, as it's difficult to read the text while all that is going on. At any rate, it's very important.

For those of you outside of the States, this still affects you in the long run as well. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

[jetflock]

I hope it doesn't happen. I'll go down fighting.

[Raptor Jesus]

It's under construction??

[edit]nevermind, the rest didn't load yet. XP

[General Greivous]

So, tell me before I click it and waste my time: Is it another one of those doomsoother websites? I'm guessing so by Nomad's post.

Also the title reminded me of the movie 28 Days Later. Guy walks into a church and theres red spray paint on the wall saying "THE END IS EXTREMELY F***ING NIGH." I loved that movie.

[Nomad]

So, tell me before I click it and waste my time: Is it another one of those doomsoother websites? I'm guessing so by Nomad's post.

Sure.

By the way, here's a nice video that everyone should see. Of course, you should always think for yourself, but I think here is some pretty undeniable evidence of the the "twin towers collapse" being a controlled detonation. If you think about it, it all falls into place (no pun intended), and the way they collapsed makes all kinds of sense.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911+mysteries

It's an hour and a half long, but very interesting.

[General Greivous]

There are so many conspiracy theories going around about 9/11 its ridiculous. That's not to say any one of them aren't true, however, considering it's not like the U.S. government would ever tell us anything. People just like to throw possibilities away because they don't deem them feasible. Well, believe 50% of what you hear and the same goes for what you see, anymore.

[Nomad]

Bias. People will deny anything that contradicts their beliefs. Brain scans reveal the science behind this (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/brain_politics_041029.html), and reveal that chemical reactions play a lot in those biases.

Score: 1 for independant science, 0 for politicians.

Speaking of science. There is no point in omitting information you take in because you think it might be silly "doomsoother" propaganda. That would be like doing a science experiment, and omitting data that contradicts your hypothesis to get the results you want. Go ahead and ignore what you are presented, and if and when the time comes that the conspiracy theorists' theories come true, don't say you weren't warned.

Keep your mind open. That doesn't necessarily mean believe everything--only to expect anything.

[General Greivous]

I have an open mind, don't get me wrong, but I live day to day knowing that we're a button away from a chain reaction of events that will induce nuclear winter across the face of the planet, not to mention all the things we've done to the environment and continue to ignorantly do that will ultimately lead to the human race's demise. I have a good day every now and then, and I prefer to put the horrible reality of the bigger picture aside at times and try to make it last, before I wake up the next day to find out some new number of people have died, that war and disease continues to plague the Earth, and that at some point and time today I might die from whatever random cause I have no control over, prematurely.

[FATAL]

Well it started out fine, but I don't believe a word about the latter stuff. Especially when they brought religions into the picture, the video lost most of its credibility.

[Doom_Dude]

Well it started out fine, but I don't believe a word about the latter stuff. Especially when they brought religions into the picture, the video lost most of its credibility. Plus it gave me a headache with that soundtrack. There is some truth in that video but I think they went haywire. I have no doubt the world is being ruined by corruption and greed..... but most of that stuff they mentioned, they're forecasting will happen. heh.

I don't buy that bit where they say they have most of all the cell phone conversations and emails gathered. Can you imagine how many emails are sent daily? How many phone calls are made. Pfffffttt.... have fun sorting that shit out. :p

WTF were some of those evil organisations they mentioned only by thier so-called acronym's? *zuh*

[FATAL]

Yeah, those sounded really mean.

The video should've stayed at the psychological side of matters, and it would've been great.

[ace]

I didn't watch the whole of the first video because of the annoying music, distracting background and the necessity to pause constantly because of the shortly displayed text. However, I sat here for the whole 90-minute coverage on the 9/11 mysteries in one sitting just now, and I have to say that, while I have never really thought about those events before so my reaction shouldn't come to any surprise, I am totally shocked and disgusted.

There is nothing saying that that film's ideas that it was staged is completely factual (or factual at all), but they certainly showed plenty of evidence that supports it, to say the least. And because of this I can say I am truly outraged. The fact that there is even a slight chance that thousands of people were killed for the sake of destroying to very influential buildings instead of somebody being honest and saying that they wanted to knock them over, to justify a war or the creation of a newer building for cracking down harder on people with overbearing laws or any reason at all is just... sick.

[Nomad]

I think you're kind of missing the idea behind the destruction of the towers, if the government is behind it.

Anyone who knows anything about Nazi Germany would surely notice the parallels between the WTC "attacK" and the Reichstag Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire) in Germany.

Reichstag: OMG, OMG--the commies did it! WARRR!!!11
WTC: OMG, OMG--the muslim extremists did it! WARR!!!11

As we all know (at the very least by reading the wikipedia article I lined to) that the Reichstag fire was intentially done by the state to instil "fear" in the populace, and caused their parliament to pass an act that allowed the leader absolute power in times of emergency.

Sound familiar?

*coughhomelandsecurityactcough*

Heil Bush! (By the way, I guess this offically should be moved to the Politics section now)

[eX_Do0mY]

I all of the first video and 30 mins of the second video. The first video got a little silly, but it had some very interesting information in it. The second video was very interesting, with a lot of interesting possibilities on why 9/11 happened. I have to say, those videos have changed my mind on what 9/11 and it's implications are really about.

[Nomad]

I all of the first video and 30 mins of the second video. The first video got a little silly, but it had some very interesting information in it.

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly why I posted it in the first place, as silly as it gets. But it's interesting nonetheless.

[+Acyclitor+]

i think your right Nomand, and i think we are prettymuch fucked already. i've prettymuch slid into the realm of preferring world-wide extinction of humanity.

[Nomad]

What a coincidence! That's what they want too! "They" want to reduce the world's population by about 80%. It's a lot easier to police everyone if there's less people.

[Tchakkazulu]

I was irritated by the guy's lack of appropriate apostrophe use. And the music, the music hurt my head.

[Aliotroph?]

Maybe I'll have time to look tomorrow. Chances are I won't be any more convinced than I was by all the other conspiracy movies floating around about 9/11.

[edorien]

I don't buy that bit where they say they have most of all the cell phone conversations and emails gathered. Can you imagine how many emails are sent daily? How many phone calls are made. Pfffffttt.... have fun sorting that shit out


Back in 1988, a news report announcing it's inception:
http://duncan.gn.apc.org/echelon-dc.htm

1999
http://archives.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/06/nsa.goes.too.far.idg/

From 2000
http://cryptome.org/echelon-cinsa.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,178584,00.html
http://cryptome.org/echelon-eb2.htm


But otherwise.
ha ha ha ha ha

[jetflock]

The fucking terrible thing is we all know, at least subconsciencely, something is up. Whether it turns up to be catastrophic, or is something we can deal with and live through is anyone's guess. Thing is, it IS real. Personally, I think American needs some kind of Bolshevik revolution ala "Dr.Zhivago", to defeat the masses, and fuel reform. It wouldn't be as pretty as that shitty movie V. I did like his apron though.
Meh. Everyone is dead.
Plus it gave me a headache with that soundtrack. There is some truth in that video but I think they went haywire. I have no doubt the world is being ruined by corruption and greed..... but most of that stuff they mentioned, they're forecasting will happen. heh.

I don't buy that bit where they say they have most of all the cell phone conversations and emails gathered. Can you imagine how many emails are sent daily? How many phone calls are made. Pfffffttt.... have fun sorting that shit out. :p

WTF were some of those evil organisations they mentioned only by thier so-called acronym's? *zuh*

Hmmm....I think that is why they want to integrate A.I., atleast pertaining to the video thingy. I said somewhere else around here about technology being hidden for 50 years before let loose. I don't know, check out all those Nazi airplanes, you can see the mother to the stealth bomber. That shit didn't come out until the 80'ser something. Who knows what's sorting George's mail these days....*bug*

[jetflock]

delete post.

[Nomad]

The fucking terrible thing is we all know, at least subconsciencely, something is up. Whether it turns up to be catastrophic, or is something we can deal with and live through is anyone's guess. Thing is, it IS real.

I'm very surprised with the responses in this thread so far. Of course you have the skeptics, but that's always going to happen. Even when the shit hits the fan, they're going to be hard headed about things like this.

But I do agree. There is just something plain out eerie about the current status of America, and what's going on. They would have you believe that everything is going normally. But we all know that there is more than the eye can see. There is so much going on under the public's radar that we do know somewhat about, so there's no telling what's going on that we don't know about.

I was talking about this sort of thing with my father today, and he mentioned something about the military being operated independantly from the core of the government here in the US. If this is true, then some sort of rebellion against a rogue government may not be quite as impossible as we might think. However, I'm still under the impression that there is something big on the way that we can't possibly imagine. Or I could just be paranoid. But hey, as they say, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.

[Doom_Dude]

I have no doubt that corruption is widespread. It isn't just the States tho. It's everywhere. Things are not right and the whole system is a mess. Obviously there is shit that has happened and is happening that we are all oblivious to. The U.S. government still hasn't told us the truth about the Roswell incident, which is damned annoying to say the least and just goes to show that they don't want the peasants to know jack shit.

It's hard to come to any conclusions to wtf is going on when all you have is some flashy video with headache music and colored text as proof. :p

[Nomad]

Not really proof. Just stuff that everyone should pretty much know already.

Also, I was thinking about the whole Roswell thing yesterday, actually. That is an event that everyone KNOWS the government lied about, and STILL has lied about. Everyone KNOWS there are secret projects that the military and government conduct all over the country (and probably all over the world), but they're OK with it.

There is no reason that the government should keep secrets from taxpaying citizens. We're all conditioned to believe that whatever the government is doing is in our best interests, but I'm beginning to be inclined to believe they're doing otherwise.

[edorien]

There is no reason that the government should keep secrets from taxpaying citizens. We're all conditioned to believe that whatever the government is doing is in our best interests, but I'm beginning to be inclined to believe they're doing otherwise.

But you should keep secrets from potential enemies( ie other countries,civil rights groups, terrorists, etc...) no?
And with the internet uncensored... said enemies have access to that information.

(Note: Sarcasm alert)

[Nomad]

I think a, "Yeah, we have bigger badder weapons than you, and we're not afraid to show it" approach would be more effective than trying to hide everything, but that's just me.

I don't think America realistically has any enemies anymore. Sure, there's a lot of people with a lot of contempt for the nation, but I think everyone knows by now that we could end the world with the flick of a switch if we wanted to... Which, of course, is another disturbing thought, but somehow comforting at the same time.

This idea, also, is why I think that the "muslim extremists" truly have been behind these so called attacks on America. They're not stupid, and know anything they have is completely outnumbered and obsolete compared to whatever we have. No one can seriously believe they can attack us and somehow win. The only way to take us out at this point is to secretly attack from the inside-out by infiltrating the government.

Which, somehow, I believe is exactly what is happening.

But I'm just paranoid.

[Doom_Dude]

Yes, the U.S. government totally failed it when it came to Roswell and trying to cover it up with a retarded 'weather balloon' story. Heh.

...and my point with that video is, it was poorly put together and hard to concentrate on what they're trying to say.

[Doom-Dork]

careful what you say Nomad, if the U.S. Government reads Newdoom you could be classed as a terrorist.

Originally Posted by Doom_Dude
It's hard to come to any conclusions to wtf is going on when all you have is some flashy video with headache music and colored text as proof.

Check this out Doom_Dude
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7309475304055637591&hl=en-GB

[Nomad]

careful what you say Nomad, if the U.S. Government reads Newdoom you could be classed as a terrorist.

I realize this. But I'm sure as hell not going to give into this plot, if it indeed is real. In a situation where an innocent man is placed into prison, he's probably better off in imprisonment.

At least I'll know my rights are being impeded upon, unlike the poor sheep that get herded out to pasture and murdered in cold blood.

[jetflock]

I wasnt really basing any of my own thoughts on that video. I believe some of it, but it was prolly made for some trust fund New York hipster to show at his loft space "art show".

[General Greivous]

I realize this. But I'm sure as hell not going to give into this plot, if it indeed is real. In a situation where an innocent man is placed into prison, he's probably better off in imprisonment.

At least I'll know my rights are being impeded upon, unlike the poor sheep that get herded out to pasture and murdered in cold blood.

The $65,000 question is: Whether you know your rights are being impeded upon, and you don't want to give in, as long as you live in the United States under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Government, do you have much of a choice in the matter?

I'm personally looking at transferring to a college in Canada here shortly. Theres a lot of personal reasons other than the U.S. Government, but lets just say I don't want to be here because Bush just keeps pissing off more and more people, and some day he's going to piss the wrong person off or say the wrong thing out of shear stupidity...

[Nomad]

The $65,000 question is: Whether you know your rights are being impeded upon, and you don't want to give in, as long as you live in the United States under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Government, do you have much of a choice in the matter?

What I mean, is that I'm not going to give into the lies. I'm not just going to quetly accept everything they spew out. I reserve my right to have my rights. I'm not going to go "out" without a "fight" (which should not be taken out of context, of course)--My rights are plainly stated in the United States constitution, and I will resist if those rights are taken away from me or impeded upon. The things proposed by the "Homeland Security Act" and the "Patriot Act" are pure bullshit, and are doing just what I've described: giving the government full permission to impede on our rights, against the Constitution.

What they're doing is getting ready to "weed out" the "terrorists". In other words, everyone who resists what they're doing. By their system, by the words I'm saying, I'm demonstrating being a "Super-patriot," defending the constitution and proposing violence ("I will resist if my rights are taken away or impeded upon").

By at least a couple of the "indicators" on this FBI JTTF flyer put out a while back, I could be investigated as a terrorist. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg

Right.

On the bright side, a small note about the flyer on infowars.com:
According to Terry Chapman of the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office -- whose name is on the flyer as the MCSO contact -- the FBI created the flyer and printed the MCSO and Attorney's Office before the text was approved. He said it was created as a full color brochure to hand out to officers, not for the general public -- and that as soon as he saw it, he urged them not to use it, knowing it had some problems.

"The flyer never got off the ground," said Officer Chapman, "but it did manage to make it's way out -- and maybe it's right that it did." He genuinely didn't like this piece of junk, and he showed true concern about my issues with the flyer, too. "We were not happy with it. It was formulated, I think, for legitimate purposes, but it fell on stony ground because of the way it was worded -- the unfortunate profiles that were put in there outraged a number of people who received it."

"It's dead in the water as far as I know," said Chapman. "I just can't imagine the FBI putting it out there again. It wasn't for the public. The fact that it's circulating again has gotta be by unofficial sources."

Mr. Chapman couldn't name the FBI agent who created the flyer, saying the individual who created it was no longer with the FBI's Phoenix branch, which he described as having "revolving doors." Sheriff's officers didn't like the flyer, either. Said Chapman, "I had a Lieutenant from our own office call me and ask 'Am I on your list?' Am I a threat?' for supporting the constitution?'" Chapman was embarrassed by the seeming targeting of "decent, honorable segments of the community" by the flyer -- he hoped it would never be handed out or go anywhere at all.

According to Chapman, the FBI approached the Sheriff's Office saying they wanted to put a flyer together to help local law enforcement raise officer awareness about who to watch out for. They asked for a local contact name and number for use of a flyer they wanted to produce, and because Terry Chapman heads up MCSO Intelligence, he was the likely candidate. Possible lesson for Chapman: don't let yourself get used by misguided federal agents again.

The big question: Why the hell does the FBI have someone running around promoting that Defenders of the Constitution (and the common law from which the Constitution was born) are domestic terrorists?

The FBI has not returned phone calls on this matter. But suffice it to say that there has been at least one unAmerican weasel running around their camp urging people to turn against We The Real American People. We'd sure like to know this fool's name and location within the Bureau. If you track that information down, please contact me personally; we've got a bone to pick with him and his boss, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft.

There's something wrong there.

[Doom-Dork]

There's something wrong there.

And that thing is called George W. Bush.*guilty*

After watching the Alex Jones video - 911 The Road To Tyranny (you can find the link to this video in my previous post) George W. Bush is the new Adolf Hitler.

To All Americans:- Be careful the Gestapo is coming.

[Nomad]

I'm so sick of people blaming Bush. Bush wasn't in office during the first WTC bombing in 1993. Yes, his father was in office just before, but--Niether of them were in office during the Oklahoma City bombing, which if you watched the Alex Jones video, he went into pretty great depth about the OK bombing, and the extreme likelihood of government involvement.

This whole thing goes deeper than whoever the president is. It's really not that hard to see. The presidents have just been doing their job: The National Scapegoat.

[Doom-Dork]

This whole thing goes deeper than whoever the president is. It's really not that hard to see. The presidents have just been doing their job: The National Scapegoat.

And on 9/11 when Bush was told that "America is under attack". He sat there, in that schoolroom, for a full 10 minutes, doing nothing - Thats the president just doing his job.

[Nomad]

And on 9/11 when Bush was told that "America is under attack". He sat there, in that schoolroom, for a full 10 minutes, doing nothing - Thats the president just doing his job.

Not to mention he wasn't whisked away to a secure secret bunker or something.

Plus, he said on two occasions, when asked what he thought about what had happened, he said that he saw the first plane hit on television, which as everyone should know, the first hit wasn't shown live on television. He's either just stupid, a good lier, or is a good actor, (or was watching it on some sort of closed-circuit CIA viewing, but that's another story). You can make of that what you will.

[Aliotroph?]

I still think you guys give your government way too much credit. The whole terrorist thing is really, really simple: some groups from one religion that are practically medieval have decided everyone else sucks. Add this to the standard North America vs. Europe politics, and a lot of super-religious guys from the US and ugliness ensues.

Types like Bush and his friends wouldn't be able to orchestrate such a huge conspiracy that in the end wouldn't get them much more power than they can pretty much have just from money (and they have plenty of that!). Sure, they have all kinds of smaller plots, as all governments do, and they'll jump on opportunities to police more, but in the end they're mostly just bureaucrats and bureaucrats really just want to be useless and rich.

Once again I'll point out that the point of most terrorist types isn't really to "win" in the way we'd think of it. They mostly just want to blow themselves (and others, their side or not) because they're deluded and stupid. They clearly can't destroy us in any conventional way but they're happy to cause grief -- because that's what terrorists do! That's why they're terrorists and not revolutionaries.

I'm not happy with the obsession with security though. It could stop a bunch of stuff but it's obvious that once you get enough of it, you still won't stop all the terrorists AND you end up in a police state.

As for the tech, I don't buy most of the cover-up stuff. Governments can't run enough of a scientific community in secret to produce super-advanced technology that nobody knows about. They can classify patents on stuff that looks militarily useful, and some of that will be incredibly clever, but 99.99% of it will just be very plausible technology that other group can and do dream up, even if they can't build it. In the end governments with lots of money can have all kinds of secret projects but they're not going to end up decades ahead of everyone else in all but a couple technologies.

Your mention of stealth is like that, for example. The German tech you were thinking of was probably this thing, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229) which is just a flying wing. If you read through the article on stealth tchnology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology) you can see why it was stealthy: it was a flying wing. That article also does a good job pointing out that true stealth designs like the F-117 are aerodynamically unstable on their own and require lots of redundent fly-by-wire stuff just to stay up. That would explain why you never see one before the 80's.

[FATAL]

Once again I'll point out that the point of most terrorist types isn't really to "win" in the way we'd think of it. They mostly just want to blow themselves (and others, their side or not) because they're deluded and stupid. They clearly can't destroy us in any conventional way but they're happy to cause grief -- because that's what terrorists do! That's why they're terrorists and not revolutionaries.
In my opinion most of the people folks tend to call terrorists are indeed revolutionaries, but the ones in power always label them as terrorists to make themselves look better in the eyes of other goverments.

[Nomad]

In my opinion most of the people folks tend to call terrorists are indeed revolutionaries, but the ones in power always label them as terrorists to make themselves look better in the eyes of other goverments.

Truly. Do you think that King George III called the militia men in the colonies back in the 1700's "Revolutionaries"? He probably didn't call them terrorists, but if that scenario were today, that is exactly the phrase he would have used.

[Aliotroph?]

No, he would hae called them rebels. They're terrorists if their tactics are based on causing "terror" in people, and that doesn't mean they even have to have any success or even kill anybody.

Guys like those in al-qaeda are terrorists. They want us to give them things and they try and get them by blowing up people almost at random who are usually in no way actually connected to a power structure or a military of any kind. On top of that, they run around justifying this based on the fact that the people they're blowing up don't share their religion and oppressive values -- they think they're martyrs for killing people of other religions.

If those types of guys want to build anything at all it's a muslim theocracy. It's somewhat different for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, who mostly seem to want to own various chunks of land and are willing to blow up buses over it. There are clearly a lot of Jews and Christians who want to do the same thing but those groups are vastly outnumbered so it only looks like muslims do it over there.

If you look at your example, the American Revolution, you see there were indeed bands of angry rebels. For the most part they were smashing up governments and military installations (and sometimes people who sided with the government). That's more like a normal rebellion like the ones you see in Latin America and such.

I still pick my support for revolutions based on their ideals though, and muslim theocracies don't do it for me. The Taliban deserved what they got and more. The Americans just aren't that scary and with any luck they never will be.

[Nomad]

The taliban got what they deserved.

They were given the equipment and training to perform the first WTC bombing. By the U.S. government. The FBI admitted it.

Yes. They get exactly what they deserve.

[Aliotroph?]

Clearly the CIA guys weren't thinking too hard about the ideologies of the guys they were arming to fight the Russians. :/

[FATAL]

Well at least they kicked Russia's ass when it came to mess in their country.

[Doom-Dork]

It all boils down to the same thing. You want to do something that the general public are not keen on, you cause something to happen against your own people, and then blame it on the enemy, just to get the public on side.

There is well documented evidence of this all throughout history.

[cchristianTP]

I waited for it to say something i hadn't already heard and accepted as valid (not neccesarily true)
and something i didn't already know
-all politicians are liars
uh.... yeah. you didnt know that???
-the government dosn't act just because it's in our best interest.
No! REALLY!?!!
-the government is corrupt
all modern governments are corrupt

Not bad but... nothing new here.....

[rustyslacker]

No, he would hae called them rebels. They're terrorists if their tactics are based on causing "terror" in people, and that doesn't mean they even have to have any success or even kill anybody.

Guys like those in al-qaeda are terrorists. They want us to give them things and they try and get them by blowing up people almost at random who are usually in no way actually connected to a power structure or a military of any kind. On top of that, they run around justifying this based on the fact that the people they're blowing up don't share their religion and oppressive values -- they think they're martyrs for killing people of other religions.
Missing the point. They're not terrorists because of current terminology, holy wars, or any such idea. They're terrorists because they attack non-military targets. If they hit military bases and soldiers and such, they'd be operatives or something.

However, the word "terrorist" may stir up some kind of American freedom-fighter mentality, so I can see why it'd be overused in order to gain political leverage with the war-happy and the paranoid.

And at you, cchristianTTP: I think Nomad posted that more to show the stuff about conspiracies, bias, and sheep citizens.

[cchristianTP]

And at you, cchristianTTP: I think Nomad posted that more to show the stuff about conspiracies, bias, and sheep citizens.

Oh ok... well alot of those conspiracies ARE valid (Saudi arabia might have done it)
but bush admin. blowing up the towers??? I seriously doubt that they would have thought it a good idea...
Also, Bias in pollitical situations especially is UnderIntelicised. ALL politicians will try to take over if they think they can... the government controlls information BTW. the US gov. even called AlJazeera terrorists (or at least in leauge) and they also say that iran is a theocratic Dictatorship that oppresses wemen. and the americans (the most ignorant and stupid breed on the planet) BELIEVE them!

[Doom-Dork]

And Bush also said.

"If your not with us, your with the terrorists"

well I suppose that makes me a terrorist. *winky*

[Aliotroph?]

Missing the point. They're not terrorists because of current terminology, holy wars, or any such idea. They're terrorists because they attack non-military targets. If they hit military bases and soldiers and such, they'd be operatives or something.

However, the word "terrorist" may stir up some kind of American freedom-fighter mentality, so I can see why it'd be overused in order to gain political leverage with the war-happy and the paranoid.

It's not that simple. You're a terrorist if your strategy is to terrorize a population to get them to do something you want. This could be to leave, give in, convert, etc, etc. If you're attacking targets that you aren't necessarily a terrorist. You can hurt a country's military or guerrillas by attacking roads, occupying towns, blowing up just about any kind of production facility, etc, etc.

In the case of smaller paramilitaries that means you can get a lot by blowing up civilian infrastructure and using that as a way to collapse a government or keep an army out. If you start hurting civilians to get them to keep a military out then you're a terrorist.

Bombing a civilian population to demoralize them politically would be terrorism. WWII falls into a grey area there though because essentially the entire populations of the various countries were involved in the war. That made cities, dams, factories, roads, government offices, power plants, oil wells, and ships all very nice targets.

[cchristianTP]

[QUOTE=rustyslacker]Missing the point. They're not terrorists because of current terminology, holy wars, or any such idea. They're terrorists because they attack non-military targets.[Quote]

WRONGO! They ARE terrorists because of termiinology, nemely: Al-Jazeera, Hezbollah, the iraqi nsergency, etc.
the REAL terrorists are the good friends of the fachist american government, The Taliban (who thank america for all thier good monetary/arms support back when they were trying to tart a good clean dictatorship) I don't have to mention the Al-Queda groups, who help them find new members for thier UN-holywar everyday (in parents whose children were ripped to pieces by american bombs)

[QUOTE]If they hit military bases and soldiers and such, they'd be operatives or something. [QUOTE]
They do, that's what amiericuns call "terrorism"
I call it "save the fucking planet from the REAL enemies of the people."
America has No right to enslave other contries populations.

[Aliotroph?]

Fix your [/quote] tags.

While I'm sure there are lots of Americans who are enemies of the people, I'm also sure that types like the Taliban are friends of nobody but dictators, torturers and disgusting savages who oppress others. Just take one look at how they were running Afghanistan.

[Nomad]

torturers

Ta Da! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/27/AR2006092701287.html)

I'll work on the other ones later. ;)

[FATAL]

Damn you, I was going to post that sometime!

Heh, seems like USA is starting to treat its enemies like animals, except that animals' rights are defended more ferociously.

I wouldn't want to be suspected of terrorism, who knows how long I would have to rot in some cell without even knowning what I'm prosecuted from. I say that's terror.

I think Bush needs to hit the big red button labelled "self destruction" if he really wants to fight against terrorism.

[cchristianTP]

bush is a puppet
the administration is the problem.
And so are Americans, pretty much a lesser spiecies than the rest of the world...

*from a forign point of view*: Americans are the real problem in the world, they are a nation of immoral greed. they cheat murder and inslave just so tht they can ruin the enviornment with thier SUVs. one day they'l lose the quality of thier land and have to move to some other place to ruin, like MY country. thats why we have to stop America from conqoring ny more nations. Iran only needs a little bit of help, someone to keep the bombs from bieng dropped, after that, what can america do? even with a populace that believes only in murder, and has no shortagee of those who would join the military just to kill for fun...
i think americans might eat babies if it would get themm any where

(^not my exact opinion, another view^)

But yeah, americans are bad....
But the country is in decline, soon we'l be rid of them...

[Sigma]

bush is a puppet
the administration is the problem.
And so are Americans, pretty much a lesser spiecies than the rest of the world...

*from a forign point of view*: Americans are the real problem in the world, they are a nation of immoral greed. they cheat murder and inslave just so tht they can ruin the enviornment with thier SUVs. one day they'l lose the quality of thier land and have to move to some other place to ruin, like MY country. thats why we have to stop America from conqoring ny more nations. Iran only needs a little bit of help, someone to keep the bombs from bieng dropped, after that, what can america do? even with a populace that believes only in murder, and has no shortagee of those who would join the military just to kill for fun...
i think americans might eat babies if it would get themm any where

(^not my exact opinion, another view^)

But yeah, americans are bad....
But the country is in decline, soon we'l be rid of them...

Laughable. While I am by no means a proud supporter of various American policies, this is absolutely ridiculous.

By no means is "the end nigh." People have been spitting this garbage from their lips and writing such for hundreds of years. Things are much better now than they were in the 40's, 50's and 60's. President Bush and his Administration might be under-handed, but by no means does he or his cabinet reflect America. Afterall, he only has 35% (relative) approval ratings. Britian, Germany, Russia, China, France and Japan, et cetera have their history as well. Keep in mind as well-- America is not operating alone. As much as the rest of the world might detest America, that simply does not reflect in the greater scheme of things to be true. Israel and Britian are just as crooked as America in different ways (and often, even in the same ways).

And then, even on top of that, you have nations with radically different mindframes-- each orchestrating its own wretched will on its own people and other nations.

[cchristianTP]

I think it's rediculous too, but it's important to the disscussion.
And "the end is nigh" refers to the end of Freedom. It's true, and the stupid people are supporting thier own government, BLINDLY BELIVING that the system works and that the politicians are on thier side...
Thats bull.

Oh and to your sig:
Schweigen ist GOLDEN...
bis zum Übernehmen ist der Regierung!

[Aliotroph?]

People may be stupid, but unlesss you take the humanity from everybody freedom can't ever permanently end. Governments aren't that stable.

Lots of other countries would murder and steal if they could or if they had the money. Lots already do despite not being as rich as America. It's a people thing. The only things that really bug me about America atm, are: use of security as a means to let the government do too much (sorry, but people's lives statistically aren't worth that), their voting system (it's more broken than ours), and the over-abundance of scary Christians.

All of those things exist in most other countries to some extent, and often to a greater extent.

[cchristianTP]

point taken and accepted.

BTW where are you from? Canadia? Iceland? U.K.?

[Aliotroph?]

Heh, forgot that I changed my profile to have that silly made-up thing. Canada.

[Doom-Dork]

Going back onto the 9/11 story, here are a few quotes from the book by Dr David Ray Griffin - The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions


1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers---including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC---are still alive (19-20).

2. The omission of evidence about Mohamed Atta---such as his reported fondness for alcohol, pork, and lap dances---that is in tension with the Commission’s claim that he had become fanatically religious (20-21).

3. The obfuscation of the evidence that Hani Hanjour was too poor a pilot to have flown an airliner into the Pentagon (21-22).

4. The omission of the fact that the publicly released flight manifests contain no Arab names (23).

5. The omission of the fact that fire has never, before or after 9/11, caused steel-frame buildings to collapse (25).

6. The omission of the fact that the fires in the Twin Towers were not very big, very hot, or very long-lasting compared with fires in several steel-frame buildings that did not collapse (25-26).

7. The omission of the fact that, given the hypothesis that the collapses were caused by fire, the South Tower, which was struck later than the North Tower and also had smaller fires, should not have collapsed first (26).

8. The omission of the fact that WTC 7 (which was not hit by an airplane and which had only small, localized fires) also collapsed---an occurrence that FEMA admitted it could not explain (26).

9. The omission of the fact that the collapse of the Twin Towers (like that of Building 7) exemplified at least 10 features suggestive of controlled demolition (26-27).

10. The claim that the core of each of the Twin Towers was “a hollow steel shaft”---a claim that denied the existence of the 47 massive steel columns that in reality constituted the core of each tower and that, given the “pancake theory” of the collapses, should have still been sticking up many hundreds of feet in the air (27-28).

11. The omission of Larry Silverstein’s statement that he and the fire department commander decided to “pull” Building 7 (28).

12. The omission of the fact that the steel from the WTC buildings was quickly removed from the crime scene and shipped overseas before it could be analyzed for evidence of explosives (30).

13. The omission of the fact that because Building 7 had been evacuated before it collapsed, the official reason for the rapid removal of the steel---that some people might still be alive in the rubble under the steel---made no sense in this case (30).

14. The omission of Mayor Giuliani’s statement that he had received word that the World Trade Center was going to collapse (30-31).

15. The omission of the fact that President Bush’s brother Marvin and his cousin Wirt Walker III were both principals in the company in charge of security for the WTC (31-32).

16. The omission of the fact that the west wing of the Pentagon would have been the least likely spot to be targeted by al-Qaeda terrorists, for several reasons (33-34).

17. The omission of any discussion of whether the damage done to the Pentagon was consistent with the impact of a Boeing 757 going several hundred miles per hour (34).

18. The omission of the fact that there are photos showing that the west wing’s façade did not collapse until 30 minutes after the strike and also that the entrance hole appears too small for a Boeing 757 to have entered (34).

19. The omission of all testimony that has been used to cast doubt on whether remains of a Boeing 757 were visible either inside or outside the Pentagon (34-36).

20. The omission of any discussion of whether the Pentagon has a anti-missile defense system that would have brought down a commercial airliner---even though the Commission suggested that the al-Qaeda terrorists did not attack a nuclear power plant because they assumed that it would be thus defended (36).

21. The omission of the fact that pictures from various security cameras---including the camera at the gas station across from the Pentagon, the film from which was reportedly confiscated by the FBI immediately after the strike---could presumably answer the question of what really hit the Pentagon (37-38).

22. The omission of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld’s reference to “the missile [used] to damage [the Pentagon]” (39).

23. The apparent endorsement of a wholly unsatisfactory answer to the question of why the Secret Service agents allowed President Bush to remain at the Sarasota school at a time when, given the official story, they should have assumed that a hijacked airliner might be about to crash into the school (41-44).

24. The failure to explore why the Secret Service did not summon fighter jets to provide air cover for Air Force One (43-46).

25. The claims that when the presidential party arrived at the school, no one in the party knew that several planes had been hijacked (47-48).


You can read more of it at:
http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchive/2005-05-22-571pglie.php

[Nomad]

16. The omission of the fact that the west wing of the Pentagon would have been the least likely spot to be targeted by al-Qaeda terrorists, for several reasons (33-34).

17. The omission of any discussion of whether the damage done to the Pentagon was consistent with the impact of a Boeing 757 going several hundred miles per hour (34).

18. The omission of the fact that there are photos showing that the west wing’s façade did not collapse until 30 minutes after the strike and also that the entrance hole appears too small for a Boeing 757 to have entered (34).

19. The omission of all testimony that has been used to cast doubt on whether remains of a Boeing 757 were visible either inside or outside the Pentagon (34-36).

20. The omission of any discussion of whether the Pentagon has a anti-missile defense system that would have brought down a commercial airliner---even though the Commission suggested that the al-Qaeda terrorists did not attack a nuclear power plant because they assumed that it would be thus defended (36).

21. The omission of the fact that pictures from various security cameras---including the camera at the gas station across from the Pentagon, the film from which was reportedly confiscated by the FBI immediately after the strike---could presumably answer the question of what really hit the Pentagon (37-38).

22. The omission of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld’s reference to “the missile [used] to damage [the Pentagon]” (39).

This particular video compiles a lot of good evidence regarding the Pentagon attack: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5714975155113419363

[cchristianTP]

the pentagon was not hit by a plane.

[Nomad]

No shit, Sherlock.

[cchristianTP]

No it was not...
at least, there is no evidence (hasn't read the long strange list, is going off of prior knowledge).

[lucius octavion]

Controlled demolitions they were in WTC towers. And in WTC 7 they had to "pull it"

[Doom-Dork]

Yeah! I have seen that video Nomad. In fact I have seen nearly every video at
http://belowgroundsurface.org/

[cchristianTP]

yeah but I believe that Some of the ideas of what hapened are a little too far fetched...
For instance: Bush blew them up himself.
- - this is probably false, the possible reprecussions could be too great...

[Nomad]

I do not think Bush was directly involved, no. But I do believe he knew about it, as did a very large portion of his administration, which even if they did not have direct part in it, makes them just as guilty for not preventing it.

[rustyslacker]

It makes sense, though. If he had said "we prevented a massive terrorist attack", some people would have been all, "Yeah right, he's just saying that to win us over". But by giving the impression of trying to unite the nation after a massive terrorist attack, he gave the impression that he was some kind of loving and helpful father figure to America in these hard times.

[Aliotroph?]

It's easier to believe that your government just had too much bureaucracy to do anything about it whether or not any of them had an idea what was going on beforehand.

[Nomad]

I just can't help but think about Reichstag.

[lucius octavion]

I believe bush is just a pawn for someone else behind all of it.

[Nomad]

I don't think that Bush is completely unaware of what's going on, but I otherwise agree with you.

[+Acyclitor+]

in my opinion, the powers behind the curtain are probably ultra-conservative and ultra-wealthy buisnessmen, most likely attached to Halliburton. how much money do they stand to make rebuilding in the wake of war and selling occupied oil wells?

[cchristianTP]

About €94,000,000 each from what I get...
And It has been proven as fact that Bush knew it ws going to happen, and he ignored it.
He was too busy on vacation...

[cchristianTP]

About €94,000,000 each from what I get...
And It has been proven as fact that Bush knew it ws going to happen, and he ignored it.
He was too busy on vacation...

[Pieter Enis]

Finally Acyclitor said it:
I too think some big corporations are behind all this, thinking about their money.
But it's not only the US that's corrupt, it's happening everywhere.
One more fun fact: I don't like to watch TV

And about AIDS 'n all those diseases, I personally think Nature is taking revenge/doing as planned.

(Everything I wanted to say has already been said. Except for some Anti-Americanism. I don't support that. As I said, it's not only the USA)
I could give examples, but I either forgot the names of events or I'm too lazy to look it up.
My one cent, as I might want to add more

[+Acyclitor+]

And about AIDS 'n all those diseases, I personally think Nature is taking revenge/doing as planned.yeah i agree with you there. mother earth finds ways to hurt us back. whenever there is an imbalance in any ecosystem, its negative impact gathers and eventually becomes the cause of the imbalances' destruction.

as to the "anti-Americanism." i love and believe fervently in the principles on which the USA was founded. but in its current form, America (politicians, the hypothesized fascist/elitist/totalitarian takeover, and almost all of the citizens) just make me ashamed. i feel like Solidus from Metal Gear: Solid 2

[Nomad]

yeah i agree with you there. mother earth finds ways to hurt us back. whenever there is an imbalance in any ecosystem, its negative impact gathers and eventually becomes the cause of the imbalances' destruction.

"Mother Nature" is no less imaginary than God is. Nature is just that; the normal workings of the planet and the universe. "Mother Earth" isn't "finding new ways to hurt us back", what we're experiencing is causality. Karma if you will. The choices we made in the past are affecting the outcome of the future, and that happens to be more harsh weather in certain parts of the world.

[+Acyclitor+]

i don't think of "mother earth" as any sort of sentient force. i meant it as nature itself, Karma as you suggested, by way of natural consequence. i did not mean to imply such backlashes were by intelligent design, but are - in a manner of speaking - the world's defenses.

[Nomad]

I just meant that personifying nature is a little silly.