Adding slopes to Legacy [Archive]

smite-meister

January 19th, 2005, 03:50 AM

Since slopes (meaning sloping floors and ceilings) seem to be one of the most requested new features
for Legacy, I thought it would be useful to discuss here what it would take to have them implemented.
The way I see it, at least these areas of the code would have to be changed:

1) Map format. How are the slopes defined in the WAD, how do other source ports handle this?
(Mainly ZDoom, are there any other ports which support slopes?)

2) 3D floor code, probably, if you want slopes for them also.

3) Collision detection (traces), line-of-sight routines. By far the hardest part.
Currently collision detection completely separates the horizontal and vertical directions.
With slopes, you can't do this anymore. Do we need per-polygon collision detection?
Some of this could be found in the Quake2 code.

4) Movement. How steep surfaces can you climb? How fast?

5) Rendering. Pretty hard in software, easy in OpenGL.

Any ideas?

Ebola

January 19th, 2005, 03:58 AM

Vavoom also supports slopes. Other than the hexen format of maps they don't have anything different, the slopes are made with linedefs just like the 3d floors.

I suggest you just simply look at Zdooms source code. Bare in mind though, when Randy added slopes to zdoom he had to completely rewrite the renderer because of a bug in the original doom renderer. (traces of this bug is visible when you look up and down in software)

iori

January 19th, 2005, 04:14 AM

Wasnt the software renderer being dropped for the c++ version?

Also, in most real 3d engines the grade of the slope determines whether or not it's climbable. If this would be the case here, then per poly collision detection would be most fitting i'd think, but how much effort would be required for this (it's easy for me to suggest this without knowing the amount of effort and time it will take to complete it)?

Hurdler, if you add slopes, it might be a good idea to use the same linedef types as ZDOOM so maps are somewhat compatible:

340 "Slope the Floor in front of the line"
341 "Slope the Ceiling in front of the line"
342 "Slope the Floor+Ceiling in front of the line"
343 "Slope the Floor behind the line"
344 "Slope the Ceiling behind the line"
345 "Slope the Floor+Ceiling behind the line"
346 "Slope the Floor behind+Ceiling in front of the line"
347 "Slope the Floor in front+Ceiling behind the line"

Danimetal

January 19th, 2005, 06:02 AM

Hmmm. I´m not into the C stuff but I think you could ask the ZDoom guys or take a look at their source code. If the codes were to be compatible we would be one step ahead on port convergence :). Since ZDoom is free software (as far as I know) it wouldn´t be too hard to take a look to what is needed and, in case, to modify the parts of the code you think is necessary.
Still, ZDoom works on software mode, am I right?. That could be the beginning of working with the Software mode of Legacy.
But as Iori says, it´s easy to suggest and to let oneself be carried away by imagination without really knowing the effort these things could take.

shinobi

January 19th, 2005, 06:22 AM

I understand that the colission detection is the hardest part (i'm a C programmer, not very good but a programmer anyway) But you can do something like a transformation (internal, not in the renderer) of a slope to a stair so , internally (not visually) a slope like this

\
.\
..\
...\
....\
.....\
( A Slope)

Could be transformed into this

_
.!_
...!_
.....!_
.......!_
(Stairs)

Just for the collision detection routines, It would not be very accurate, but it may work. The most important thing is that you don't change the colission detection code.

Pate

January 19th, 2005, 06:35 AM

Coding the transformation is probably more work than doing proper collision detection.

Exl

January 19th, 2005, 12:59 PM

I know that ZDoom can turn a sector into a slope by having a special slope thing placed, or by using a linedef type as IoriPerson showed. The sector at the front side of the linedef will become the slope's top height as well as the slope itself, the backside will become the lowest point of the slope. Next to the linedef types IoriThing mentioned, ZDoom also has one slope linetype for Hexen with arguments (slope ceiling or bottom, align lower textures to slope or to floor).

Having sloped 3d floors seems like a bit of an extreme for now. I'm sure a lot of people would already be in extacy if just plain slopes were working in Doom Legacy.

A collision detection theory from somebody not experienced enough in (game) programming could be as follows;
Seeing as only a sector in itself can become a slope, you also know the direction the slope is facing 9determined by the direction the linedef's first side is facing, absically), as well as the floor height at any point in the sector since you can calculate that with the aforementioned values. Then you could use that calculated height wherever the vertical collision detection would have to occur instead of the sector's true height

Steepness of climbable slopes could either be taken from another source port, for that tiny bit of compatibility. In general though anything beyond a 45 degree steepness seems to be unclimbable. The speed at which to climb shouldnt be considered IMO. Regular doomguy running speed as if it was a flat sector would seem okay to me.

Rendering I know jack all about.

Danimetal

January 19th, 2005, 04:46 PM

I think Pate is all right... If it has been done before in a slopey way well, there´s something to work on from. I also agree with Exl in the 3d slopes, it would take ages to code them so they are stable, specially if there is no "regular" slope to compare it with... I mean, lots of debugging should be done with slopes and it would be sorta crazy to work on 3d slopes without having "regular" slopes properly working.

Other thing that would be a hell to code (I think) would be 3d floors over slopes. Collision checks would be quite complex (again, I think) if these two elements were to connect with each other.

Now I see, maybe working on slopes would be twice difficult that I thought it could be but, in my honest opinion, it would be worth and could be a very valuable feature for the Legacy port, as well as a nice piece of architecture :). I would be very happy if they were to be included in the C++ release, regardless of the time it could take but maybe others can´t just wait for it :P.

Considering adding them now, then or even later is, of course, a decision only in the Legacy Team hands´.

And maybe now I´m being blasphemous or even completely stupid but, is there a way to see how Duke Nukem 3d slopes worked?. The way I remember they weren´t related to neighbour sectors to see their low and hight ends so you could have even pyramids with their upper point sharp (I think that this couldn´t just be done if you need a sector to set the high end of a slope). I know that DN3D used a very different map format but maybe other method that ZDoom´s would be worth for mapping purposes (and it would screw any compatibility as well as it would be hard to code).

A very basic way to do them would be to have a control sector and set the lower texture name to the lowest end, the higher texture to the highest end and the normal texture to set the edge texture of the slope. Of course, I´m only making suggestions from an external point of view.

Peace.

PS: Sorry if the message is too long or confusing. I just feel inspired :P. Moderators, feel free to delete or correct parts of it.

MR_ROCKET

January 19th, 2005, 07:06 PM

Compatibility is one thing but at the same time legacy already has its own boom data types, yet still worth looking into the zdoom source - or maybe even better vavoom seems how it also has 3dfloors which can give you a good idea of how the slopes were done in doom code. if that could be recoded so that the slopes would work well with the current 3dfloors, I think that would be our best bet. if it doesn't work well in "software mode" and we "can't walk up" them "at first" oh well, couldn't these bugs be worked out later? *what*
I'm pretty sure about 90% of the mappers want slopes for architecture purposes not to just substitute them for stairs. it would be nice to have a slope for a stairway here and there sure, but I doubt its as much as a high priority for the mappers out there as they would be architecturally wise.
I'd like to see them work good with the current 3dfloor system, but if not I'll settle with the standard slope or what ever gets decided. my guess if they get put into legacy not being 3dfloor type of slopes, that will be the next thing people will be asking for anyway heh. 3dslopes

The Doomer

January 20th, 2005, 02:10 PM

I personnaly don't mind if Legacy doesn't get slope support. Frankly I have never used slopes in my wad editing and have stuck with the original doom editing specs. Besides that I think that Legacy's 3d flooring as well as the other things including upcoming Hexen editing features is plenty. If you want to edit with slopes and 3d slopes use Vavoom.

MR_ROCKET

January 20th, 2005, 03:12 PM

woah, you sound like your against slopes or something?, in that case you would be strongly out voted and you probably shouldn't have posted anything then. but I suppose even someone that might be against it is still entitled to voice an opinion. -even though going by your site having only 2 wads hosted, which turn out to be a modification of someone else's work?
anyways, heh to bad vavoom's netcode is somewhat broken.

Mike.Reiner

January 20th, 2005, 08:14 PM

Wasnt the software renderer being dropped for the c++ version?

erm, is this true?.......... *shocked* I know 3dfx is being dropped.... but i didnt hear anything about software being dropped....

to me, slopes are something that can add more variety, and there are some legacy mappers out there that would put the feature to good use, so i'm all for the slopes coming in.

iori

January 20th, 2005, 09:10 PM

I think Hurdler said something about software mode being dropped in favour of two different types of hardware renderer, one that looks like a common opengl renderer (jdoom/zdoomgl/etc) and one that mimics the look and feel of software mode.

This was a while ago though, his plans could've changed since then.

Hurdler

January 21st, 2005, 12:54 AM

No, software mode is not dropped at all. The OpenGL renderer will have a mode looking much more the same as the software renderer, but the software renderer will remain. There are only some features we might not add to the software renderer.

iori

January 21st, 2005, 01:04 AM

Ahh ok, thanks for clarifying.

shinobi

January 21st, 2005, 06:39 AM

3d slopes = support for md2 models?

I think that normal (not 3d) slopes would be enough

Mike.Reiner

January 21st, 2005, 06:51 AM

smite-meister

January 21st, 2005, 07:33 AM

3d slopes = support for md2 models?
No, MD2 models are not related to slopes.
Slopes are part of the level architecture, and require good (per-polygon) collision checks.
Models (MD2, MD3) are meant to replace sprites, but they will not change the game mechanics in any way.
They just change the visual appearance of the mapthings.

MR_ROCKET

January 21st, 2005, 08:47 AM

Yeah to help clarify what I was saying about a standard slope and 3dslope.
A standard slope would work editing wise like a standard sector with a special line type that would change the angle z height of one of its lines in the sector.

A 3dslope would work for the most part like a 3dfloor would, control/target sector based and its angle height would be set in the control sector.

Although I'm not sure exactly how they will work yet because they haven't been implemented into the legacy engine- or have they? :P, rather smite's more or less wanting to know which path to take with them as far as what the community wants out of them.
but for now I can tell you the difference between the two types :)

_

About the max height "to climb", I think 128 units should be fine, anymore more than that would look just plain silly. I don't think there should be any sorta speed changes to walk or run up them. - but then later after a release and feed back, ideas about speed to walk up may change.

Danimetal

January 21st, 2005, 09:12 AM

Climbing speeds... They could be somehow Fragglescripted with complicated formulae.
About the md2 or md3 format, optional hitboxes for damage location :P?.

MR_ROCKET

January 21st, 2005, 09:29 AM

heh I was just getting ready to edit, - or that could be fraggled. at the end of my last post but ya beat me to it :o

Not to change the topic which I definitely don't want to do,
But I was thinking something about the model cam axis.
Could a model/thing have the option to not have a rotational cam, or at least not fallow the player movement? if so then archways or even slopes could be modeled as an alternative to sector based.

Danimetal

January 21st, 2005, 10:44 AM

Lol!!!.
I assume it would be something like... Well, assing a tag to the sloped sector and then based on the player´s angle and x and y momentum check if the player is in the tagged area and modify the momentum. Sure some kind of universal formula can be found and well, it could be even added to the Legacy code to be switched on or off as autoaim is. Let´s see...

If player is in the tagged sector
Get the player´s angle or momentum or whatever.
If the player walks the slope upwards
Limit his speed.
If he does the same downwards
Add speed to him.

See, that could be some FS stuff for some parts you need it!.

By the way, some time ago I also found some "Way" to do the damage location thing. I assume that blood splats originate in some coordinates. Well, substracting the floor height from these coordinates you would obtain a Z value to be contrasted with a Hit Table so you could multiply damage... I think it can be done with FS if the coordinates from the blood splats can be found and you can apply whatever to the desired monster. Complicated, anyhow, assuming we´ve played Doom without that for years... Strangely enough, I always aim for the head since I play with mouselook!!!.

Returning to the slope thing, maybe is worth to work on the player´s speed on slopes so you can turn it on or off. Nobody knows what mappers could do with them and maybe you´ll find it being asked in the future :P.

MR_ROCKET

January 21st, 2005, 11:05 AM

Well I see what your getting at, but the modeled archway or "maybe" even a slope wouldn't need to be walked on, it would be just for architecture values mainly, they would just look really strange if they rotated as you walked passed them heh
This only as an alternative to a "sector based slope which I would much rather see and use", at that something I'm just wondering about.
it has nothing to do with sectors, only thing type model rotation. - the thing types that are stationary eg. electric lamps, touches etc.

ok back on topic lol

PumpkinSmasher

January 21st, 2005, 01:38 PM

I think slopes would be a great addition, I've never mapped for Zdoom and am not sure how they work exactly, I just hope yall make them easy for mappers to make while editing. I'd be glad to see a C++ version released before slopes. Can't wait for the next beta

MR_ROCKET

February 3rd, 2005, 01:23 PM

Whats your thoughts Smite?

smite-meister

February 7th, 2005, 04:26 AM

iori

February 7th, 2005, 11:58 AM

I think that all zdoom maps are (at least based on) the Hexen format; even its doom maps are garbled in the a doom editor unless you look at them using something zdoom/hexen specific.

MR_ROCKET

February 7th, 2005, 09:32 PM

Yeah I think if i remeber, to make a zdoom slope you need to use a util called zwadconv.exe that merges both the hexen iwad and doom2 iwad. either that or converts doom2.wad to hexen format. as output file doomhak.wad. at least that's what was needed to be done for the slopes I put in a skulltag sourceport map - skulltag based on zdoom63. so I imagine its the same deal.
The doomhak.wad output file is what you would need to load in the editor as the main resource file. it kinda mixes the editing features of both hexen and doom, giving you the line defs needed to make slopes and such at the same time leaving the doom graphic resources untouched.

if needed the download can be found here smite: under editing utilities.
http://zdoom.org/download.html

heh this is something i havnt tried with the legacy hexen alpha. i would totally put on some adult diapers just in case it worked.

deepteam

February 9th, 2005, 08:41 AM

I just checked the ZDoom editing Wiki, http://www.zdoom.org/wiki/index.php?title=Slopes
It seems to me that only the Slope Copy and Sector Tilt thigs can produce (almost) arbitrary slopes,
and they both require the map to be in Hexen format.
Maybe they simply have not documented the Doom-mode slopes yet?

Anyway, I think we'll first finish the beta and only then start thinking about adding slopes :)
line specials 340 - 347 are for regular format levels. Think I posted that somewhere else a while ago. Hexen format levels have the extra args so just 181 and 182 do all of those.

The wiki has very little to no info on DOOM format specials - sort of odd.

MR_ROCKET

February 14th, 2005, 10:16 PM

But smite what if we say, Thats Not Good Enough, We Want Our Slopes Now!! *dark* *wacky*

Oh and, We Want Them Made Of Cheese!!

Danimetal

February 15th, 2005, 02:45 AM

I would also like them now but if I say it loud enough they will ban me from Doom Legacy :P.

Serious now, as I´ve said other times, slopes would be a very valuable addition. Along wth ACS (though I don´t know what it is :P) and the new renderer stuff would make Legacy an incredible powerful port.

I will wait but... Will you work on slopes once the C++ version comes???. Mr. Rocket can´t wait and this can´t be good for his heart :P.

Aliotroph?

February 15th, 2005, 03:25 AM

With slopes an HeXen, Legacy would look like Daggerfall but be less crashy. :D

Doom_Dude

February 15th, 2005, 09:47 PM

Slopes + 3D floors = teh win!

I look forward to the day I can use slopes alongside 3d floors in Legacy. Right now I'm so tired I can't think....*crawls off to the sleeping chamber*

Tiealk

February 16th, 2005, 04:04 AM

The wiki has very little to no info on DOOM format specials - sort of odd.

Why do you think it's odd? I can't imagine anyone mapping for ZDoom using the Doom map format because all the good features cannot be used there.

In other words: There is not much need for this kind of information.

Back to slopes:

It was mentioned that the slope things are only available in Hexen format. That's not that surprising considering what they need to work.
Doom-format neither has a z-coordinate nor any arguments except the angle field so there is simply not enough space in the structure to store all the needed information.

But since the C++ version of Legacy does support Hexen maps that shouldn't be a real problem, should it?

MR_ROCKET

February 16th, 2005, 07:05 AM

in other words,
Hexen + Boom = teh win! ;)

deepteam

February 16th, 2005, 10:51 AM

Why do you think it's odd? I can't imagine anyone mapping for ZDoom using the Doom map format because all the good features cannot be used there.

In other words: There is not much need for this kind of information.

Back to slopes:

It was mentioned that the slope things are only available in Hexen format. That's not that surprising considering what they need to work.
Doom-format neither has a z-coordinate nor any arguments except the angle field so there is simply not enough space in the structure to store all the needed information.

But since the C++ version of Legacy does support Hexen maps that shouldn't be a real problem, should it?
Glad you missed the whole POINT of my post *drinky*

As I already posted, the slopes are indeed available in the stock DOOM format. And it is odd that none of the DOOM format extended features are documented since the purpose ot the wiki is to document everything :) Has nothing to do with Z and nothing to do with angles as far as the specials are concerned (not the thingy stuff).

So indeed there is a need for this kind of information to minimize posts that confuse the issue again. *thumbs*

Aliotroph?

February 16th, 2005, 11:57 AM

Danimetal

February 16th, 2005, 02:16 PM

Someone should document Legacy... If I knew how to read source code I would help but I´m afraid I can´t. At least I won´t be able to do it until I finish my neverending exams.

Doom_Dude

February 16th, 2005, 04:53 PM

Deepteam is exactly right on this. If you make a Wiki that documents your features the idea is to document ALL of them, regardless of what most people use. One of the funny things about Legacy is how poorly some of the BooM features have been documented. Some of them (ANIMATED) are quite clever and add a lot to a map. In the case of that ANIMATED lump, I don't think I've ever seen a use of it in a released Legacy wad.

DD, get yer texture-building arse into fluid animation mode! :p

Once I get [enter usual blab about Vilecore II]...... I'll be working again on a 12++ map Legacy project that uses a lot of 3D floors and Boom stuffs. My already released Blood Pentagram level that contains 3d tables and chairs and bookshelves, etc... will be the entry map. If there was slopes to work with alongside the 3D floors it would be damned sweet. As for textures those...... what's an animated lump? *uhh*

MR_ROCKET

February 16th, 2005, 08:44 PM

I'm with doom_dude on this, it will be sweet to be able to use both 3dfloors and 3dslopes to complete the newer 3d type of editing, from that point we will be able to make any thing. more so any realistic building structure. heh look out q3, its doomlegacy.

was thinking about the vertex limit, I don't know if i'v asked this before but, will the vertex limit be increased? because after adding so many more structural elements it might, hmm I guess this would be more of a graphics engine tweak than an editing addition but might not be an issue until some test maps are made about it?

Aliotroph?

February 16th, 2005, 11:48 PM

As for textures those...... what's an animated lump? *uhh*

DooM has crap animated texture support. So the Team TNT came up with this lump called ANIMATED. You use a tool that gets you a text file containing definitions for all the animated textures in DooM. The number of frames, textures used, speed, etc. It also contains switches. Thats all nice but the sweet part is you can add your own! You can have an animated waterfall with 100 frames if you wanted and they could animate very smoothly.

Legacy supports doing this and it looks sweet (I have a test map somewhere to prove it too...) but the tools for it are hidden and badly documented. You find them in that pack of BooM editing tools Team TNT made. You'd have all kinds of fun with it since you make your own textures. :D

Danimetal

February 17th, 2005, 07:29 AM

Mr.Rocket, I agree, it would be sooo nice. Imagine: polyobjects, 3d polyobjects, 3d floors, slopes, 3d slopes, rotated textures and flats, acs... The possibilities are infinite. It´s a lot of work though and, even if I would want to see them in the next release I think the guys should take it slow. We will have them someday, I´m almost sure.

Now, O.k Rocket, they ain´t reading this... Let´s make a platform to raise the interest on those things and taking control of the Legacy development :P... Oooops!.

MR_ROCKET

February 17th, 2005, 08:50 AM

Mr.Rocket, I agree, it would be sooo nice. Imagine: polyobjects, 3d polyobjects, 3d floors, slopes, 3d slopes, rotated textures and flats, acs... The possibilities are infinite. It´s a lot of work though and, even if I would want to see them in the next release I think the guys should take it slow. We will have them someday, I´m almost sure.

yeah, i was just messin with smite in that post, i'm sure he knows that seems how i wanted them made of cheese :P

Now, O.k Rocket, they ain´t reading this... Let´s make a platform to raise the interest on those things and taking control of the Legacy development :P... Oooops!.

im not sure what you mean by this, unless your trying to mess with me now :P

Danimetal

February 17th, 2005, 09:21 AM

Sure my english ain´t good enough to express myself :D.

I was joking about pressing (is that the word?, nono, pushing!!!) the team and so on so they will release what we want when we want (sorta Bill Gates :P). Only joking, of course. Cheeeseee slooopeeess... (hungry... :P).

Anyhow, is something about a possible method of slope insertion discussed?. Would it use the ZDoom standard?. Will it create its own?.

Doom_Dude

February 17th, 2005, 09:50 AM

Maybe someday they'll put in slopes and then we can bug them to insert the 3d slopes. I'm not sure if one would be any easier to implement than the other considering I know nothing about code stuffs. To get slopes we might have to chip in and buy the team a new coding shovel or somethin. ;)

Danimetal

February 17th, 2005, 10:46 AM

That´s it, step by step.

Tiealk

February 17th, 2005, 03:14 PM

Glad you missed the whole POINT of my post *drinky*

As I already posted, the slopes are indeed available in the stock DOOM format. And it is odd that none of the DOOM format extended features are documented since the purpose ot the wiki is to document everything :) Has nothing to do with Z and nothing to do with angles as far as the specials are concerned (not the thingy stuff).

So indeed there is a need for this kind of information to minimize posts that confuse the issue again. *thumbs*

Nobody documents it because nobody uses it. And nobody uses it because although some features are available in Doom format maps, most are not. IOW, there's no interest in documenting these features. I'd bet that 90% of all ZDoom mappers don't even know these types exist!

There's only one single ZDoom-specific WAD out there which used Doom-format maps - and that is Herian 2 which is already a few years old - before slopes were added.

MR_ROCKET

February 18th, 2005, 12:30 AM

hmm interesting.

Anyways, dani I've been posting here for a long time, as well as the underground forum before newdoom was invented, so they kinda know me.
so when they see me post something like "W3 W4NT 5L0PZ "N0WZ0RZ" M4D3 0F OMGCH33Z3RUFFL3SHOEZ!1", they know its not to important.:)
and so ya know, about 2 months ago I told hurdler not to feel rushed about anything, we understand real life matters take away from the time you'd have to spend on coding something that takes a grate deal of time of its own.

so yeah :)

Danimetal

February 18th, 2005, 04:39 AM

Of course Rocket :). Everything I say about rush is obviously a joke (are noobs allowed to do jokes??) and all I say about taking it slow are just "Thank you"´s to the team in some way.

I love Legacy so much, I love it as it is and I know that if I had to do it I would like people to stay calm about it so that´s my way of saying "Thanks". Not that we don´t stay cool and calm here but you know, sure the team feels good when they read support stuff :). (I think I´m gonna get banned for this :P).

See ya on Demonic Revolutions!.

MR_ROCKET

February 18th, 2005, 06:40 AM

oh boy and sure, yeah we all support legacy, damn straight, but if its a joke, just in case I would make it clear that it is though heh.
but if anything else what ever it is I wouldn't worry about it, you seem a little worked up hehe, things like this you could just pm me about heh :P

anyways, lets keep this topic about slopes plz, with butter and pepper on top :D

Danimetal

February 18th, 2005, 07:28 AM

MR_ROCKET

February 18th, 2005, 07:52 AM

Before your formula tries burning a hole in my brain meats any longer.
I see your point but at the same time, how will we know without testing it by building it depending on how it might work?

Danimetal

February 18th, 2005, 08:42 AM

Before your formula tries burning a hole in my brain meats any longer.
¿ *what* ? Sometimes I hate my english...
I see your point but at the same time, how will we know without testing it by building it depending on how it might work?
Yeah, I know, now it´s only a possibility but that´s why it´s posted here, for the developers to know when the time comes. I thought it would be valuable to have some info in possible bugs :).

MR_ROCKET

February 18th, 2005, 09:19 AM

indeed, i'll wait to see what they might say about it, have a feeling us mappers will end up giving a ton of feed back when the time comes though heh
hopfully when that time comes, the only feed back will be omg they work flawlessly :P

deepteam

February 18th, 2005, 09:55 AM

Nobody documents it because nobody uses it. And nobody uses it because although some features are available in Doom format maps, most are not. IOW, there's no interest in documenting these features. I'd bet that 90% of all ZDoom mappers don't even know these types exist!

There's only one single ZDoom-specific WAD out there which used Doom-format maps - and that is Herian 2 which is already a few years old - before slopes were added.
Please read my posts carefully and not be so hostile. This thread is a perfect example of why it should be documented.

This is an interesting argument - like which came first: the chicken or the egg? If nobody documents it then nobody will use it will they *zzz*

Besides that there are many more levels not published that you are not aware off. What 90% don't know is not the point. 90% of ZDOOM mappers hardly understand the Hexen format specials/ACS either *wave* does that mean it shouldn't be documented *flip*

Doom_Dude

February 18th, 2005, 02:30 PM

I´m such an emotional person :P.
Anyway, back on topic... I thought about a possible bug with slopes and 3d floors. Imagine an upwards sloping wall (really a floor) and 3d floor like this:

\
X\
XX\===================== z axis ^
XXX\
XXXX ----------------------------- x axis >

(Sorry about the stupid diagram, I couldn´t make it better).
Wouldn´t something strange happen when they both collide?. Also, wouldn´t slopes work strange on platforms, like if they could trespass the ceiling?.

Im sure there may be initial bugs in getting slopes to work let alone getting them and 3d floors to work together but they sure did a nice job on coding the 3d floors that I'm sure they'll figure it out when the time comes.

Just to be able to make a slanted pillar or an obelisk would be sweet. *kewl*

MR_ROCKET

February 18th, 2005, 07:41 PM

I second that heh, hell even if we can't walk on them yet.

Aliotroph?

February 18th, 2005, 08:47 PM

I have no idea about software but in GL couldn't a slope just intersect through a 3D floor like models do to each other? At any rate I know GL would be happy to draw it.

Doom_Dude

February 19th, 2005, 05:24 AM

I have no idea about software but in GL couldn't a slope just intersect through a 3D floor like models do to each other? At any rate I know GL would be happy to draw it. Maybe softwarez mode should replace the slopes with little signs that says 'if you want to see the slopes run this wad in GL mode' :p

Aliotroph?

February 19th, 2005, 01:07 PM

Or we could just take a peak in a game that already knows how to draw them in software. :p

The sector lighting still looks way better in software.

Tiealk

February 19th, 2005, 02:54 PM

I have no idea about software but in GL couldn't a slope just intersect through a 3D floor like models do to each other? At any rate I know GL would be happy to draw it.

GL wouldn't mind to draw such a construct at all. The question is whether the collision code of Doom would be able to handle it...

Aliotroph?

February 20th, 2005, 04:58 AM

I'm gonna say yes since the slope collision code doesn't exist. Therefore I predict what it will do even if I can't write it myself. ;)

Doom_Dude

February 28th, 2005, 03:36 PM

DooM has crap animated texture support. So the Team TNT came up with this lump called ANIMATED. You use a tool that gets you a text file containing definitions for all the animated textures in DooM. The number of frames, textures used, speed, etc. It also contains switches. Thats all nice but the sweet part is you can add your own! You can have an animated waterfall with 100 frames if you wanted and they could animate very smoothly.

Legacy supports doing this and it looks sweet (I have a test map somewhere to prove it too...) but the tools for it are hidden and badly documented. You find them in that pack of BooM editing tools Team TNT made. You'd have all kinds of fun with it since you make your own textures. :D

Wowzers I think I missed this post somehow. Though I think I heard about this secret Animated thinghy before. I could really use it and it would be better than trying to ram a bunch of small textures onto one big one. Heh. /me rummages around for Animated lump tweaker.

I was looking at some 3d angled support beams in a Blade of Darkness map today and thought.... 'this would look killer in a Legacy map'. Oh well, guess all I can say about the slope thing is that I want them and I've said that so often that Hurdler is probably ready to hit me with a slope. ;)

Mystic

March 1st, 2005, 09:12 PM

slopes would be nice, they were one of the things that made duke nukem 3d so good when it came out *drifts off to nostalgia land for a few moments*

Yes, I agree with Doom Dude, it would be really nice to have slopes, not just as a replacement for steps but for making nifty hexagon shaped corridors on spaceship type levels, sloping cielings, bannisters on staircases, that sort of thing.

Aliotroph?

March 1st, 2005, 09:27 PM

Hexagon/octogon corridors are practically cliche by now. No wonder Star Trek reverted to square ones. ;)

Duke3D had buggy slopes. They could swallow up sprites in a rather interesting way.

Doom_Dude

March 2nd, 2005, 09:52 AM

Imagine tho if the angled bits at the top of the hex corridor structure were 3d slopes and you could put triangular, transparent glass in the holes. :D

Aliotroph?

March 2nd, 2005, 10:16 AM

Hehehe, that would look neato.

Danimetal

September 19th, 2005, 09:41 AM

I´ll never understand why this thread had to die. *creating pressure*.

Doom_Dude

October 13th, 2005, 09:46 AM

I was thinking there was news about the slopes or something. :P

*grows webs waiting for a dev to walk in* ;)

MR_ROCKET

October 13th, 2005, 01:25 PM

I have started on some sexy maps in the past, but sorta waiting on the c++ version.
The sexy maps scream out "slope me baby oh oooh yeah slope, me baby!!!"

iori

October 13th, 2005, 02:44 PM

/me slopes MrRocket *dark*

That should hold you for a while..

Danimetal

October 13th, 2005, 02:46 PM

Disgusting... XD!.

Anyway, let´s keep this thread alive and randomly throw mentions to "3d slopes" , maybe it will work as the Hi-Res sprites did :P.

Planky

October 13th, 2005, 02:48 PM

oops, my hand slipped and resulted in me clicking the thread tools menu, selecting 'Close Thread' and clicking ok to confirm *dark*

Oh, and by the way Rellik is the greatest and I'm a big poopy pants. :p

Rellik: Oops, *edit post*, typedy type, "save"

rustyslacker

October 14th, 2005, 10:03 AM

We should get Boingo to come help in this discussion. Perhaps, now that he knows where we all live (http://www.risingconcepts.com/frapper/newdoom) it won't take 6 years to get slopes in legacy.

Danimetal

October 14th, 2005, 10:33 AM

Rellik, that was some unfair playing (goes and hides away from mod wars).

Rellik_jmd

October 14th, 2005, 12:32 PM

???

Did it unlock automagically when I fiddled with Planky's post? I didn't unlock it, Plankster musta.

In any case...

poopypants please. :p

Danimetal

October 14th, 2005, 03:34 PM

I´d swear this was closed last time I checked :P... Anyway, shall we go and do some spam in "The Megawad" forums?.

MR_ROCKET

October 14th, 2005, 04:12 PM

Damn you iori thats my slope!! MY SEXY SLOPE!!! FOR MY SEXY MAP!!!

rustyslacker

October 14th, 2005, 04:38 PM

Ooooh....slope

I'm making a map that could use some slopes! Damn! A sloped waterfall of nukage would be so awesome for this nukage-factory level! And to see barrels explode wall falling down a sloped floor....*sigh*

Danimetal

October 14th, 2005, 04:57 PM

That´s it dudes... Keep on saying things like that until it´s in the top of the "To do" list :D.

MR_ROCKET

October 14th, 2005, 05:04 PM

I think its something like this.
In order of decreasing importance..

Tex O' Riffc !
Net O' Riffc !
Slope O' Riffic !

:)

Aliotroph?

October 14th, 2005, 05:31 PM

Maybe better than ZDoom slopes. :p ZDoom ha some limited slopes going for it. Of course, RTC-3057 fakes its way around that rather nicely.

Danimetal

October 14th, 2005, 05:50 PM

Once I thought and said about a method in wich you could specify how you´d like the slope to be. It could use the Hexen arguments like:

argument 1: Lowest height of the floor slope.
argument 2: Highest height of the floor slope.
argument 3: Lowest height of the ceiling slope.
argument 4: Highest height of the ceiling slope.
argument 5: Front or back of line :P.

It´s rather messy and harder than the Zdoom option but it seems to me like it´s far more flexible... Anyway, I don´t know if an idea like this could make into Legacy but I´d love to.

Rellik_jmd

October 16th, 2005, 11:22 AM

In any case...

poopypants please. :p

Noooooooooo!

Danimetal

November 3rd, 2005, 01:16 AM

Anyway, I think we'll first finish the beta and only then start thinking about adding slopes

That´s the kind of thing you get when you go diving in old posts.

jetflock

November 9th, 2005, 07:34 AM

hmm...i have a hypothetical cheap trick for some solid color slopes in legacy gl. think fake 3d bridges in vanilla doom. its not much better than the vanilla doom trick of using a million thin sectors, but it does its job, you can worry less about a vertex warning and long node building times.

http://www.putfile.com/rasputin1980

Doom_Dude

November 25th, 2005, 11:26 AM

Ugh I don't even like the vanilla bridges..... the thought of vanilla slopes.

*crawls away bleeding* :p

Aliotroph?

November 25th, 2005, 11:36 AM

That trick looks like it might render as a vanilla HOM or a vanilla hole, or a vanilla tutti-frutti, or a vanilla crash. :p

You should still build it and see what happens though.

Vanilla bridges can be cool. :p

MR_ROCKET

November 26th, 2005, 12:48 PM

At one point I was thinking of making some nifty (legacy total transparent) stair cases and then having multiple simi-transparent (textures) -bleeding through the stair cases, shaped like a triangle, to look like a slope. This should be very do-able and look good. though a bit of work, much more than just setting a few heights tagged with a slope line type heh.
But it is an idea that I hant-chet-persud.

Danimetal

February 7th, 2006, 02:17 AM

much more than just setting a few heights tagged with a slope line type heh.
At least for the mapper. This is a feature I would really love to see in Legacy soon but reading about what it implies (some major work on the collision code and the software renderer itself) makes me think it´s harder than it seems :(... Damn, if we could borow the code and just put it there...

Aliotroph?

February 8th, 2006, 04:36 AM

Jetflock's idea seems totally broken, unless he knows something I don't. I'd like to see him try and make it work. :p

g6672D

February 8th, 2006, 04:52 AM

I just want to see Legacy 2.0!!! :)

I think its something like this.
In order of decreasing importance..

Tex O' Riffc !
Net O' Riffc !
Slope O' Riffic !

My list. Also in decreasing importance.

Stability O' Riffic!
Render O' Riffic!
Sound O' Riffic!
Feature O' Riffic!

:)

MR_ROCKET

February 9th, 2006, 07:01 AM

Legacy's long lived community will be waiting for more new legacy awesomeness.

Danimetal

February 26th, 2006, 12:40 AM

And for, ahem... Slopes. Serious now, this thread was created to consider the possibility of adding slopes into Legacy (certainly not in v2.0, no matter how much I´d wish to ;)) but the actual discussion took place in the first pages of the thread where some things about what would be needed (I think that a lifting to the old software renderer and new collision code were the most complicated issues) were said. Was that all to it?. There aren´t any other things to consider?.

Certainly, I think that the addition of slopes to Legacy would be a really neat feature, hence my interest and this try for a "serious" resurrection of the thread :).