How about a "TOUGH" add-on for Jheretic?

[Slyrr]

I don't know nuthin' about coding, but someone over on the Jdoom forums made a "tough" add-on for Jdoom. Something to beef up the monsters and make the game more challenging.

The readme for the addon makes a convincing point. It used to be, in the 1994 era of keyboard-only gameplay, that fighting the Heretic monsters was a challenge. But with the evolution of gaming and computers came keyboard+mouse gaming. It took some getting used to, but it made 3D games that were once challenging a breeze to get through.

As a more or less experienced gamer, I find that I can fairly dance through the Heretic levels now, even on 'the black plague posesseth thee' level of difficulty.

But Doomsday's flexible coding allows someone with the skills and gumption to change the way the monsters behave. I'd LOVE to see that done for Jheretic.

Admittedly, the Jdoom "tough" add-on doesn't seem to make the grunt monsters much tougher, as it boasts. If someone out there would make a beefed up 'tough' add-on for Jheretic, they would have my gratitude.

If it's possible, make the gargoyles fly faster and more erratically. Double the life of the golems and make them hit faster. Make the sabreclaws move and attack twice as fast. Increase the speed of all airborne attacks.

Something to make the game more challenging :)

Slyrr

[CheapAlert]

Well, you could try make everything use the superior gargoyle ai.

:o NO WAIT THATLL MAKE EM FLY

[Slyrr]

wow - yer gargoyle sig just keeps getting beefier :)

Slyrr

[Ben2k9]

download HHE (HereticHackEditor), change the monster hitpoints, save, play.

unfortunatly, HHE files are not compatable with Jdoom like DEH files are, so your stuck with good ol DOS Heretic :)

[DaniJ]

Or you could just edit the jHeretic deds.

[Vermil]

Or you could just edit the jHeretic deds.

Indeed I'm trying my hand at a sort of tough ded...;)

[Ben2k9]

oh yeah forgot about the deds, yeah do that :P

[Midnight]

mmm... I may find the enemies not challenging, but then agian, I find the maps themselves challenging... oi.

[Vermil]

Well here’s what I've got so far. Many of the changes are perhaps a little to minor at the moment.

http://www.geocities.com/the_shinjo2002/JhereticToughMonsters.txt

The extension needs changing to .ded before use.

EDIT: The list of changes in the file itself is missing a couple of the changes. Though geocities appear to be having problems at the moment, which prevent me from getting to the file to correct said list.

Below is what the ded does.

--------------------
CHANGES:

GARGOYLE: No changes

FIRE GARGOYLE: Fireball replaced with Weredragon’s.

GOLEM + GOLEM GHOST: Much heavier and 33% faster. No pain chance.

NITRO GOLEM + NITRO GOLEM GHOST: Much heavier. No pain chance.

UNDEAD WARRIOR + UNDEAD WARRIOR GHOST: Fires an axe after being hit.

DISCIPLE: Ethereal (like a ghost bad guy) except when attacking. Original attack replaced with Maulotaur fireball spread attack. Treated as a boss monster (i.e no other bad guys will retaliate against it).

SABRE CLAW: Movement will speed up 33% after running for enough time. Speed will reset after being hit or attacking.

WEREDRAGON: Fireball attack replaced with Disciples attack. Disciple missile graphics changed to Weredragon missile graphics. Melee attack added.

OPHIDIAN: Will track opponent while firing.

IRON LICH: No changes.

MAULOTAUR: No changes.

D’SPARIL SERPENT: Movement speed doubled. Fireball damage increased. Fireballs have splash damage. Melee attack added.

D’SPARIL: Attacks after being hit. Missile attack modified to spawn the small ice bolts the Iron Lich’s ice missile spawns when it hits something, as it travel’s.

[Slyrr]

Sounds sweet - if only I knew how to edit the ded's and be sure that I wasn't screwing everything up.........

The tougher the better for heretic I say - respawning makes it a little TOO tough like Doom's 'nightmare' level. So beefing up the monsters a more is just the ticket.........

Slyrr

[Slyrr]

How do you get it to work? It's a txt document, but all the 'add-ons' are .ded files - where do I put it and in what format so that I can test it out - or is it still a work in progress?

I tried changing it to a .ded file as you suggested, but it's not showing up in the KICKS add-on window, which is the only way I know of to activate it.........

Slyrr

[Majuub]

what i do if deds are in text format is open them up in notepad add .ded to the end of the name and change the format from text document to all files, it then will save as a ded.

[Slyrr]

I tried as you suggested - I must be missing something since it's still not showing up in the KICKS window........ Any other suggestions I might try?

Also, it might help to know exactly what folder to place the file into, and if you need to overwrite/delete something so the ded's won't conflict....

PS = I also tried downloading it directly using 'save as' to save it 'as' a .ded.........

PPS: I found the "add" button under the .ded panel - it seems to be working. MUCH better (aka tougher!)

[Vermil]

Sorry my Internet connection has been down/messed up since my above post hence the lack of a reply :(.

To use, change the extension to ded and add it to the definitions list in kick-start, place in the auto folder etc. It’s uploaded it with a txt extension because geocities don't allow uploading of files with a ded extension.

I've made a couple of minor changes on top of the above:

GARGOYLE + FIRE GARGOYLE: Has a slightly smaller profile.

FIRE GARGOYLE: Added melee attack.

DISCIPLE: No longer classed as a boss monster because it seems the alerted sound for any boss bad guy is played very loudly.

IRON LICH: A ring of ripper balls (the same action as the players variant just copied. heh) shot out late into the death animation.

http://www.geocities.com/the_shinjo2002/JhereticToughMonsters.txt

Probably not worth re-downloading if you've already got it (if anyone found it interesting enough to download in the first place). I tried a bunch of things with the Maulotaur but strangely all messed up. For instance its charge attack seems unusable other than the way it is.

I'm out of ideas now. Hopefully I'll come up with more in the future.

[Event Horizon]

A few ideas:

The Iron Lich should be able to fly.
Make the Maulotaur's ground homing (if that's possible).
D'Sparil's attack should create a long line of Hellstaff rain.
The Iron Lich could use D'Sparil's summoning spell.

[Slyrr]

I downloaded it - I think it's GREAT!
Anything that makes the monsters SUPER tough (homing missile maulotaur??) should be added as a seperate ded for the truly masochistic.....

Excellent work!

[Vermil]

I accidentally left in an attempted modification to the Maulotaur that didn't work (see after it's hit/pain animation). It has been corrected.

Also the Ophidian now moves similarly to D’sparil’s serpent when hit and the ice bolts that spawn from the Lich's ice ball projectile have been replaced with Ripper missiles.

http://www.geocities.com/the_shinjo2002/JhereticToughMonsters.txt

Apologies for all the re-downloading.

I downloaded it - I think it's GREAT!
Anything that makes the monsters SUPER tough (homing missile maulotaur??) should be added as a seperate ded for the truly masochistic.....

Excellent work!

Thanks :). See below about the "homing missile Maulotaur".

A few ideas:

The Iron Lich should be able to fly.
Make the Maulotaur's ground homing (if that's possible).
D’sparil’s attack should create a long line of Hell staff rain.
The Iron Lich could use D'Sparil's summoning spell.

Below is a version that includes the above and adds the first, third and forth things that you suggested. The second one can't be done for it seems alot of the actions in the objects.ded are hard coded to work only with the things they are currently used on. For instance all "homing" actions, the Maulotaurs charge attack. Or at least they seemed to be for me.

Also the Lich and Disciple have been made boss monsters because the Lich's and spawned Disciple were infighting very quickly.

http://www.geocities.com/the_shinjo2002/JhereticToughMonstersB.txt

[Event Horizon]

Then perhaps change the Maulotaur's ground attack to the Nitrogolem's homing skull. Then just give it the properties as the ground attack. Of course, this would affect the Nitrogolem's attack as well, so just switch it something else and give it more damage and make it go a bit faster because it would no longer be homing.

[Vermil]

I've made a few very minor changes to the Maulotaur.

His foot speed is faster and the animation for launching the ground flame has been sped up. He also fires two fireball spread attacks instead of one.

Both deds have been updated.

It seems the ground flame and charge attack stats are unchangable (the former also includes the Maulotaur's firing animation, so anything given it will turn into a Maulotaur while firing it) and the fireball spread attack is used by the Disciple.

[Vermil]

I don't have any ideas that couldn't be considered extreme, now. So I guess the deds are complete. Unless anyone has any ideas for improvement (probably not hard. heh).

Thanks for the ideas Event Horizon (credit given in B) and the positive comments Slyrr.

[Slyrr]

Excellent - finally the game is challenging again :)

Working on KORAX for jhexen - for such a total wuss in game he's sure hard to pin in 3D.....

Slyrr

[Chilvence]

Slyrr, base him off the chaos serpent. Half of the model is exactly the same, the only difference is the arms and head. At least I swear thats what Raven did...

[Slyrr]

Oh no - I'm following the sprites precisely - fans of Jhexen deserve no less. And Korax has many significant differences, among which are:
1) CS is beefy and stout with a thick serpent tail. Korax is skeletal & bumpy with a bony, ridged tail.
2) CS has two arms and two legs. Korax has SIX arms and two legs.
3) CS is smooth with some ridges on his back. Korax has spikes and protrusions everywhere.

Plus, Korax will need an openable ribcage for his belly, clawed hands and other things - suffice it to say, this model will have a MUCH higher polycount than any of my previous doomsday models to date - including D'sparil who had over 1100 polys. Good thing he only appears once :)

[Chilvence]

Sounds good :)

Hey, you dont think as a laugh, you could make a Heresiarch riding Korax when you've made him *grin*

[Slyrr]

I've found one bug - I'm not sure it's a bug, but it didn't start until I installed the ded file, so I'm assuming it was caused by them somehow -

The sabreclaws stay in sprite mode for their walking animation. But turn to their 3D counterparts when in pain, dying or attacking. Somehow the movement animation cycle is turning off the 3D animation. Hope it can be fixed easy - it's weird watching them phase in and out of 3D depening on which animation is in progress....

Slyrr

[Vermil]

The Sabre Claw's sped up running uses new states. There are no model definitions for these in the Heretic model packs. The tough deds have been updated to contain these definitions. Just had to copy and paste the existing walking definitions so even I could do it.

Theres a similar issue with the Maulotaur, though much more minor.

[Event Horizon]

Sounds good :)

Hey, you dont think as a laugh, you could make a Heresiarch riding Korax when you've made him *grin*
heh (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=427681#post427681)

[Slyrr]

Speaking of which - could you whip up a TOUGH ded for Jhexen to make this game more challenging as well?

Just do SOMETHING to make Korax put up a better fight - honestly, he's the most disappointing boss monster in 3D gaming history (in my opinion).

Slyrr

[Chilvence]

heh (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=427681#post427681)

Im just thinking of the future, y'know ;)

[Master Toddy]

Hmmm, interesting, where can i download the Jdoom tough mod you were talking about?

[Slyrr]

There's a link to it on the main forum with all the other Jdoom posts.....

Slyrr

[Vermil]

Speaking of which - could you whip up a TOUGH ded for Jhexen to make this game more challenging as well?

Just do SOMETHING to make Korax put up a better fight - honestly, he's the most disappointing boss monster in 3D gaming history (in my opinion).

Slyrr

I am working on a HeXen tough ded. Though it'll take a little longer than the Heretic one because HeXen's bad guys are more complex than Heretic's (they use allot more actions). That and I've got to think of enough changes :p.

[Vermil]

Bah! It seems nearly everything I try, either doesn't work or breaks scripts attached to that bad guy. I don’t think there would be any interest in the small handful of changes I have made, that work...so unfortunately I won't be able to make a HeXen tough ded :(.