Starting a new TC

[njbair]

I just got into Doomsday a few weeks ago. I've been using ZDoom up until now, but the hi-res textures, md2 support, etc. definitely make Doomsday a much better port. It has inspired me to start work on a TC. I'm bored at work so I figured I'd post a thread to let everybody know.

Because I'm used to ZDoom, I've already made a couple of maps in Doom Builder which utilize the native ZDoom format (Doom2 gfx & Hexen engine). I've heard that Doomsday 2.0 is going to support this format, so I plan to build the TC in this fashion.

So far I have done the better part of two maps. One is very short and will probably be MAP01. The entire TC will take advantage of Doomsday-specific features such as jumping.

Because I will probably have some breaking glass and other Hexen-type stuff, I'll at least need to make a few new textures. I am also considering doing the whole thing with custom textures, hi-res of course.

What I would like from everybody is some input. Should I make new monsters or just stick with the classic Doom 2 set? New sounds? Weapons?

I'm not aware of any existing Doomsday-specific TC's. If there are some please let me know so I can check them out. Thanks.

[Jimi]

If you're going to make a TC, you should of course have everything new, you know TC means Total Conversion. If it's going to be more than just couple maps, you should write at least a 10 page long design document.

There's some couple mods/TCs/whatever for Doomsday. Most of them you can probably find from this mods&maps forum. Also check the Doomsday HQ: Links (http://www.doomsdayhq.com/links.php) for some.

[Frades]

...take advantage of Doomsday-specific features such as jumping.
What the.. since when is jumping a doomsday specific feature?

[Wicked Anime Kid]

I think you shpuld head over to ddayhq.com and read the ded/xg/infine reference. After that tell us what you mean by dday specific sutff;)

[njbair]

Yea, i know about all that stuff. What I meant was that jumping isn't a part of original Doom. The standard maps don't take jumping into account. And yes, XG etc. will be a part of it too.

I don't know about new monsters though. I just want to make levels so maybe it's not really a TC...

[Chilvence]

If you ask me, ZDoom is much more ripe for making total conversions with, since there is so much more freedom to make behavioural changes to practically everything.

[Slide]

...you should write at least a 10 page long design document.

That's really true, I accidently wrote my last one with only 9 and half pages and the whole project fell to pieces!! ;)

[Jimi]

That's really true, I accidently wrote my last one with only 9 and half pages and the whole project fell to pieces!! ;)
Then you should have started to write more when the project was starting to fall to pieces.

But of course you can work without one, if you have a good memory in your head. I worked for 2 years with my project without a design document. Then I heard about a design document at www.moddb.com and thought that's just what I've been needing for a long time. Then my project turned more stable and the shattered pieces gathered together like a T-1000... :)

[Slide]

Then you should have started to write more when the project was starting to fall to pieces.

I think you missed the subtle attempt at humour there - but never mind.

Without getting into a big debate, I would say that for saving projects on a more general level I couldn't disagree more with the notion that more documentation will save you.

What your saying, when you say I need to write more is: I don't fully understand the problems, it's complexities and it's ramifications.

The best solution is simply card it (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WriteItOnaCard).
Got something to do? Write it on a card. Carry the card around till it gets done. Then throw the card away or put it in a box of things that are done.

Designs are inherently out of date and wrong as soon as they are finished (and usually before they are finished) - so what do you do when you add more design? - you make your design more unweildly and more wrong. If you have it on a card - it says I'm a problem to be solved/task to be done. If that problem changes rewrite the card, if it goes away tear up the card - Easy.

This is a small sample of agile development in action (otherwise known as XP). if your interested check these pages for more: Is Design Dead? (http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/designDead.html), The Rules (http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules.html)

[njbair]

If you ask me, ZDoom is much more ripe for making total conversions with, since there is so much more freedom to make behavioural changes to practically everything.

It looks to me like XG offers even better control, although I must admit that I really don't even know where to begin with it. I'm anxious to see what happens with the editing contest, since I figure there will be a lot of good examples in there. Hopefully I'll be able to learn from them.

I think it was Dani who mentioned to me in another thread, that ACS, BEHAVIOR, etc. will be usable for Doom when Hawthorne comes out. Hopefully when that happens I'll be able to run some of my old ZDoom maps in Doomsday.

[Chilvence]

Not likely. ACS support is a good start but half of the capability of the language is down to the Action specials (IE line actions) that come with Zdoom. You'll be able to make some pretty cool maps with Doomsday's ACS, but you wont be able to run Zdoom maps.

The reason I evangelise ACS over XG time and time again, is because ACS is almost its own programming language. Within its own sphere of influence, it is almost like C. Variables, operators, loops, switches, its all there - after getting used to what it can do, you wouldnt want to try the same with XG

[njbair]

Seems to me like XG is pretty capable. At this point it's still really confusing to me, but from what I gather you can do lots of cool stuff with it, especially in combination with DED.

[Chilvence]

Thats not really what I'm trying to say though really. You can certainly do some good things with XG - but with ACS, you have the potential there to write minigames onto the screen, or make moving platforms play a tune like an automated piano, heh.

[DaniJ]

Heh. I'm not saying anything. :D

... Oh ok then:

XG is THE best system of any port for what it does. No other port allows lineclasses to be created with anywhere near the flexibility of XG.

A scripting system it is not. As long as you treat it as such you'll get along fine.

[njbair]

Chilvence - Dude if you do that piano thing, that would be awesome... :)

[Chilvence]

Dont tempt me, theres plenty I should be doing already :(

Dammnit my brain is already ticking on how to do the particulars of this.....

[Jimi]

I think that's possible with XG too. Why not make a whole band of instruments playing? I think I'm gonna try and see what happens...

[DaniJ]

Yeah I was gonna say the same. After all it's not anything that would need the benefits of ACS for. For instance you could create different chain sequences (attached to switches) that played "prerecorded" music sequences as well as being able to jump on the "keys" and play a sound manualy.

I hope you do try it Jimi. It would make a great XG demo:)

[Jimi]

I'm gonna use Doomsday as a "sequencer". It'll be making some sort of "3d" music... it will play some techno music :D

[Chilvence]

Ah but will you be able to make a temp control or have the Dancing Teeth man dancing in the background *grin*

The reason ACS would make it easy is you could use arrays to write out a sort of sheet of music that could be read progressively. Of course it wouldnt be as easy as writing it in a proper sequencer like Cakewalk or Friutyloops or whatever, but you would be able to roughly read it.

Eh, dont worry about me. My ACS favouritism dates back to the day Hexen was released. I wanted the source to leak so that someone could plug it into Doom all along...

You dont want to know the effort I expended to turn Hexen into a more Doomy game...

[DaniJ]

Jimi has "hardwired" the sequence in. What you could do is create chain sequences that play each sound at different intervals etc. Doing that would allow for multiple "music sheets".

A tempo control would be a bit more tricky and would require some creative thinking in how to create it with XG (mostly likely not doable as free range and would need to remotely tic the play sequence chains).