Node building

[psyren]

Do any of the node building programs work independent of editing programs?

I mean, "If I have a wad I want to build GLnodes for, how do I do it without using an editor?"

BSP, ZenNode, both seem to be DOS programs even though they say for Windows. Are there any others?

[deepteam]

All external node building programs work independently of editing programs. Just read the docs to figure out the parameters to pass.

[psyren]

Oh, neither ZenNode or BSP 5.1 came with any sort of documentation and I am completely ignorant of how to use DOS. Even "DOS for Dummies" book is too deep for me. :(

The websites/homepages for these programs give some info, but the programs themselves are not working as I expected. I click the proper .exe to run or install and some black DOS box flashes on and off the screen so fast I cannot read it.

[The Undertaker]

They're Windows apps, they're just commandline programs. The easiest way to use them is to drag the wad onto the program.

[psyren]

So I just put my wad in the same folder then drag it onto the .exe?

[The Undertaker]

Its that simple. You'll see that box pop up (it'll be real quick if its a small level) and then it will all done.

[deepteam]

Wish it was that simple, but unfortunately you can't just drag a PWAD to any ole node building tool for all cases.

You have to read the help screen or docs for GLBSP and for ZDBSP, otherwise it will default to settings that may not be what you want. This is especially so for GL nodes.

BSP and ZENNODE also have options to vary stuff. It pays to read ZENNODE options since it will speed up the job a lot for bigger levels. For example, don't do the reject.

And yes they do have help screens. Just type the program name without any options and it will either list them or tell you how to list them. And there are docs for some of them. Just look.

To run in Win9x, use the Run option (from the start menu) and type command in the line that shows up. A little "black" command line window opens up. Put the cursor inside that box and then type CD c:\zennode where c:\zennode is the path where the node builder is installed. So it could be CD c:\bsp or CD c:\zdbsp and so on. Once there, type the name of the node builder. For example, zennode and press enter.

For XP, use the run command and type cmd and then the same as above.

What I do is make a desktop or taskbar shortcut that automatically gives me the command line prompt mode (that's what those 2 programs do). But that's for another day. Try the above first.

[Mystic]

is it okay to not do the reject?? Im not really bothered, Im working on a couple of new maps that take about 30 seconds to do in zennode but thats not really a very long wait if the wad is going to work better

[-Ki-]

I could care less if it takes hours, if it works better then it works better :P plus isn't there something to set the settings on Zennod? a launcher or something to set the settings?

[Mystic]

beats me, I just use the command line, I made a simple batch file so I just type 'zen wadname' at the dos prompt.

I just looked in it, I dont actually use any of the options, just a straightforward 'zennode %1.wad'

[deepteam]

FACT: Doing the reject is a total waste of time on today's machines.

Has been that way since the PII days (and for small levels actually since the Pentium days). All it takes to confirm doing some some objective testing on large levels with many things (the worst case). But it appears most people like to repeat what is not true and thus suck more people into believing it is true :)

IOW, you won't find a single tic of difference with or without a reject. There are new web pages that repeat the same old mistake saying it makes a difference, when in fact it does not. Amazing lack of factual testing/objectivity and again just taking hearsay as fact.

The only purpose today is to tinker with some special effects for attacks, etc. Rarely done since it's a PIA and difficult for most people to understand.

PS: The REJECT's purpose is to detect if "things" can see each other for attacks/etc. Originally on a 386 (that was the minimum machine when DOOM came out), floating point sucked, so it helped quite a bit. Today, it's actually faster to dynamically check this sort of thing. In fact, some ports can have a -0- length reject (RISEN3D and ZDOOM for example). This both reduces file size quite a bit and of course the memory footprint.

FYI: A REJECT containing all xFF, makes it so nothing attacks the player. This is a good way to check a level for enemy placement since you don't have to fight them off (it's an option in DeePsea for that reason).
If you have a large level (>10,000 linedefs) it takes quite some time to do the reject, hence don't do it! ZENNODE default is to do a reject - hence paying attention to a node pgms options/settings is important.

[psyren]

Well, it seemed to work just dragging the wad onto the .exe file, just as you said Undertaker. I watched the progress as it went through each map until it finished. This was with the latest version of ZenNode I downloaded only a few days ago.

As Deepteam says, there must be selectable parameters or variables that this method bypasses. But again, ZenNode and BSP_w32 did not come with any docs or instructions for this.

I also found glBSP works great, and it comes with a GUI the others don't have. I have the option to select these variables using this program, (though I am not sure what each does.)

Anyway, it did add 600kb to my 12 map wad. I did not select to not build reject tables though. I don't know.

I only had this problem of messed up nodes when using LegacyGL, in JDoom my maps played just fine. So maybe I just uploaded a fuct up wad to Doomworld. :(

[deepteam]

Node builder docs and where they are located:

ZENNNODE docs are located in the folder "docs" (html files)

BSP has .txt files

GLBSP has .txt files

WARM has .txt files

ZDBSP has html files

DEEPBSP is documented in the DeePsea .HLP help file.

IOW, just look at the folder where you have installed each node builder, although if you run the pgm as I described, some also display an abbreviated help which is enough to run the pgm if you understand the options.

[Doom_Dude]

Maybe I should actually read those ZenNode docs after all this time. ;)

[-Ki-]

I've read the docs. but I still just drag and drop my wads into it :P

[Mystic]

well you can add the options to your shortcut so it always uses them

[deepteam]

exactly :)

Anyone using JDOOM has to read the docs for ZDBSP or GLBSP, otherwise they will not get the right kind of nodes built. For GLBSP, it always uses the old nodes, unless you tell it not to and for ZDBSP, it won't build GL nodes unless you force it to.

And of course not doing a reject saves oodles of time on larger levels.

[psyren]

I have used the drag & drop method now with ZenNode and it seems to work just fine. JDoom automatically runs glBSP, and I don't have any problem with GL nodes in JDoom.

I basically only had a problem running some of my maps in Legacy GL, since that's where the holes seem to show up.

First I run ZenNode, then glBSP, but I am still getting these holes using Legacy, so I think it must either be a fault of Legacy or this machine, (just so as not to blame the entire problem on Legacy - even though that is the only time I have this problem.)

Not sure about all this. My wad was 3166Kb before, now it is 3735Kb or something and no improvement in Legacy. Think I will just stick with solid JDoom for GL Dooming. :(

[deepteam]

Mmm, if you don't read the docs, you'll never understand the issues involved :) Besides that, why bother doing the drag and drop when most current editors build nodes from within the editor (launching any node builder you want). Much faster and easier.

Using drag and drop uses defaults which can cause a huge waste of time since zennode make a reject (which is useless). Plus you miss out on options that can help you. For example, using Legacy, the split factor should be 64, not the default.

And when GLBSP is run from JDOOM (it runs that since it doesn't find any GL nodes in the PWAD, it 'makes GWA files, meaning they are NOT in the PWAD. This becomes an issue if you distribute your level.

Secondly, GLBSP always uses the existing nodes in the PWAD for a level(s), which may or may not be what you want.

IOW, if you made nodes with ZENNODE, then running GLBSP uses the ZENNODE regular nodes to make GWA file(s).

You have to run GLBSP with the proper options to force it to create all NEW nodes using the GLBSP algo.

And you have to run zennode with the proper options to avoid wasting time making a reject (since it does nothing for level playing speed - see above).

Since you are having a problem, the least you should do is learn more about the options and what they do, eh :)

[Aliotroph?]

King Elvis built a frontend for ZenNode. It's pretty good. I guess one day I should finish the one I was building. It was overly complex because I was building support for ZenNode's configuration files which NOBODY uses. Maybe I should have left that part out.

[Mystic]

I love when deepteam posts, I always learn something new, I had no idea about that split factor thing, time for me to read the zennode docs too I think

[psyren]

Yep, I know I need to study more. No doubts about that.