DoomSplat: what style of aiming and gameplay would you prefer

[doomjedi]

As you might know, ToxiCFLUFF is making a 2D mod form DOOM called DoomSplat, which makes a 2D platform style shooter, with bunch of cool weapons, items, grenade throwing...
The problem is - he plans to make doomguy shoot forward only, killing the floating kind of monsters with grenades only.
So I want to ask - what kind of aiming and gameplay would you prefer in DoomSplat?:
1. Forward only aka "keen1" kind of aiming.
2. "Abuse" kind of mouse aiming, keyboard movement controls.
3. "Contra" Kind of 8 direction aiming
4. Aiming forward and up only
, aka "mini-Contra"
5."Demolution Man" (Sega Genesis) kind of gameplay - contra style aiming, rolling, climbing walls (while shooting), moving along bars hanged with hands and shooting, shooting down while jumping (and stuff like that...).

[doomjedi]

Toxic... Have you ever considered the Metal slug style aiming method? You'll only be able to shoot straight and vertical, which is still challenging, but eliminates the frustration of being unable to shoot some things right above you. I have considered it, but it seems to play well to me at the moment. The other problem is that there's no Doomguy animations for him looking up, so this would look ridiculous. Anyway, that kind of situation is what the grenades are for.
I already said - if you need the frames of doomguy looking up, or in a Contra-style directions, I can draw you the frames, just find your way to somehow add them to the game and make the game load the appropriatly for 8 dir shooting...
Here are some frames I did as a preview of what I can do (took me only about half an hour to make those, I can make you a shooting/walking images too-just ask me to help you...I'm good in those things)
http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916944/PLAYG12.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916944/PLAYG1.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916949/PLAYG3G71.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916949/PLAYG3G72.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916957/PLAYG2G82.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916957/PLAYG2G8.bmp

Do they look ridiculous to you?

I'll make a full contra-style doomguy frame pack in about a week, especially if you'll show some interest in what I'm talking here about.
I can also make you some cool player death animations for random/different kind of death loading... ;) I especially love making death animations...

And another thing - if I'll make you much more enhanced frame pack - can you do the mod in the "Demolution Man" (Sega Genesis) style (which is an enhanced contra style - rolling, hanging from bars shooting all direction, arm hanging&horizontal moving while shooting, shooting down, throwing grenades and stuff, climbing walls and shooting while climbing? Demolution Man is the next contra generation really... One of the best gameplays. If you never played it - you just MUST, if you want to have a good reference of making a great scroller action game!!!! Just try to play it, you'll see what i'm talking about. If you release such a game, make it with all those abilities - that would make a game that can be not much less popular than JDOOM... THINK BIG. I always do ;)

[doomjedi]

...And about making a walking animation - well that's even easier (took me less than 15 minutes to make):

http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916961/ani1.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916961/ani2.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916964/ani3.bmp http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/26/8916964/ani4.bmp

[DooMAD]

Do they look ridiculous to you?

They look like red X's to me. ;)

[Player_of_Doom]

Yep, they look like red x's to me too.

[Frades]

It's that awesome geocities thing.. you need to copy-paste all the addresses..

[iori]

So I want to ask - what kind of aiming and gameplay would you prefer in DoomSplat?:
...Wow, if this was my project and someone went and tried to make a vote to change my own system of aiming i'd be right pissed...

[Frades]

... that's what i was thinking.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Well, having just got back on the computer - what the hell are you doing? This is my idea, my project, my choice. I'm fine with suggestions and if they sound good and reasonable I consider them, but posting polls about what kind of aiming system people want is not up to you. Because, although theoretically you can post anything you want on these forums - as long as it's not offensive or inappropriate - posting a new poll in "Editing" just to satisfy your curiosity is a waste of space - you are not the creator of the project in question, and the poll doesn't interest him.

As I said before, I'm fine with suggestions. I'll listen to all suggestions, even outlandish ones like your Demolition Man idea - no doubt brought about by your repeated failure to grasp the point that I am a scripter not a programmer - but that's where external input ends, unless I ask for it. Thanks for your time with making the doomguy aiming up sprites, but again, you should have asked me if I actually wanted them first.

[doomjedi]

Hi, ToXicFLUFF, I'm sorry if I made you mad. Please believe me I didn't mean to do that, and again - I'm sorry. Just you were not answering my post in the "keen doom" topic, so I wanted to get some attention as I like your project very much and I think it's a great idea. It's your project, I know that, and I don't have any way or even will to force you to some kind of gameplay method. The poll was made just so you'll see what's doomfans opinion about that subject. I have no plans to interfere with your project, I'm a friend, not an enemy, I'm a great supporter of your project. All I really wanted (and maybe you showed it in the wrong way) is to suggest, and as I like designing sprites, to tell that the absense of doomguy frames looking up is not really a problem, it can be fixed, so the decision left is yours and only yours - if you want/can implement that aiming style (even as non-default option - like mouseaiming in jdoom), without rejecting it because of the no-frames issue. If I had a project I would like to make the decisions myself only getting ideas as suggestions, so I understand you perfectly. No pressure. And I didn't do the frames because I wanted to force you to accept them - I did them for fun as I like doing that and I like the challenge. So don't worry about me, I enjoyed the proccess anyway :)
And again - I'm sorry.
But if you ever need my help designing sprites and sprite animations - doomjedi always to your service, free of charge ;)

Also I'd be greatful if you explain me what are exactly are your possibilities in scripting, what can you do with it, and what you can't (not being a programmer). I'd give you some much better suggestions if I had that point clear.

Let's just leave all behind and start a new clean page... :)
Pleeeaaaase... *rolleyes*

MODERATOR OF THE FORUM: can you delete the poll? I seem not to be able to do that...*rolleyes*

[Doom_Dude]

I closed the poll. Oh and by the way, please don't post 3 times in a row. Its best to edit your original post and add the xtra content there.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Ok, few things. As for me not responding in the Keen Doom topic, I'm not on the forums from Friday night to Monday afternoon - you didn't know that, so don't worry about it.

It's difficult explaining fragglescript's limitations, but the aiming up thing may be very hard anyway, because Doom can't rotate sprites - it'd mean creating another new object for every new bullet type just for when it is shots upwards, for it to display correctly.

For example, when a rocket is shot straight up in Doom, it still looks like this: -- instead of this | . So for a bullet to display correctly when shot upwards, I'd have to copy paste everything to do with the bullet twice.

[doomjedi]

I closed the poll. Oh and by the way, please don't post 3 times in a row. Its best to edit your original post and add the xtra content there.

As you are not new at the forums, you probably know that there is a limitation on the forum of a number of pictures one can put in one post. That's exactly the limitation I've got trying to post all the doomguy frames in one post.
And in the first post I wanted to intruduce the topic (generally) without writing my suggestions..
So I'm sorry for a tripple posting.
Trust me - I'm not the kind of a post-number forum-cheater, and always add/edit my post until new replies are posted.


It's difficult explaining fragglescript's limitations, but the aiming up thing may be very hard anyway, because Doom can't rotate sprites - it'd mean creating another new object for every new bullet type just for when it is shots upwards, for it to display correctly.

I understand the problem, and it seems to be a problem indeed... :( I'll think of ways to overcome that problem. Creating new objects is a mess, but the gameplay will be much improved, and will be more than "Bio Menace" shoot&grenade type.
With up-aiming or without, the mod will be fun to play :)
When will you post some screenshots? That could give me suggestions as well. Will you make a homing/heatseek missile? (Heatseeks are actually more fun, as torches can confuse them...). Maybe some bouncing weapon/grenade?

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Bouncing stuff is already in - I don't want to give away all the weapons though. Heat seeking missiles would be easy to do, but I'm not a fan, so they're out. The satellites/drone things are good enough for automatically targetting enemies.

[iori]

Toxic - how would a heat seeking (missile?) choose the target if that target is a monster? ...theres always the trigger command to work into things, but besides that? Ive always wondered this....

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Without arrays you have to use the slow shitty method of cycling through every monster on the level and picking the closest one to the player:

mobj play = playerobj(0);
int k;
for(k = 0, k < mapthings(), k++)
{
if(mapthingnumexist(k) && !objdead(k) && objtype(k) == IMP && objtarget(k) == playerobj(0))
{
if(pointtodist(objx(play), objy(play), objx(k), objy(k)) < 812)
{
<homingrocketstuffhere>
}
}
}

You could also do some checking to see if it is within 20 degrees of the angle the player is facing, but that'd stretch the forum out.
Anyway, there is a homing rocket in the example FS wad, although it doesn't target monsters......

[iori]

Ahhh i was fearing having to cycle through every monster. Thanks for the example though ;)

[doomjedi]

I was thinking about the sprite rotation problem - actually as far as I could recall of the original doom shots, rockets are the only ammo that is not simmetric and has such a problem...So why can't you do another object just for the missile weapon leaving all the rest as is? Yes, I know that you are putting many extra weapons in the game, but as I get from posts you're not putting much missile-types in (no heatseek/homing for example)? What percentage of the ammo actually is "rocket-type" antisimmetric?

And again - when do you plan showing some screenshots?

[ToXiCFLUFF]

I was thinking about the sprite rotation problem - actually as far as I could recall of the original doom shots, rockets are the only ammo that is not simmetric and has such a problem...So why can't you do another object just for the missile weapon leaving all the rest as is? Yes, I know that you are putting many extra weapons in the game, but as I get from posts you're not putting much missile-types in (no heatseek/homing for example)? What percentage of the ammo actually is "rocket-type" antisimmetric?

And again - when do you plan showing some screenshots? So far there is one symmetrical ammo type - out of 10. Screenshots will be soon (few days to a week) - I haven't finished the new particle system yet; it won't even run at the moment.


//Edit: Particle system is redone. Here is a tiny little sample of the new grenade trail: http://www.geocities.com/toxic_fluff/particle.txt

And another one, showing the player's muzzle smoke and a different weapon projectile: http://www.geocities.com/toxic_fluff/particle2.txt

[doomjedi]

\Wow, that's SO cool!! *shades*
When you say "little" you mean "little", hah?
This is just great :)
By the way - you need some animations and player frames? For instance to add some more action to the player, and I'm not talking about aiming at all now (like rolling forward to escape shots, reloading, jumping, ducking, more random-loaded death animations, lying down to shoot (still horizontally), showing them a finger, or something else to enrich the animation library for the doomguy? I'd be just so happy to give you a hand - I'll have plenty of time for that at the weekend...:D

[ToXiCFLUFF]

\Wow, that's SO cool!! *shades*
When you say "little" you mean "little", hah?
This is just great :)
By the way - you need some animations and player frames? For instance to add some more action to the player, and I'm not talking about aiming at all now (like rolling forward to escape shots, reloading, jumping, ducking, more random-loaded death animations, lying down to shoot (still horizontally), showing them a finger, or something else to enrich the animation library for the doomguy? I'd be just so happy to give you a hand - I'll have plenty of time for that at the weekend...:D Heh, they are a little small actually - I forgot not everyone is running in 800x600 these days....

I can't actually add any kind of new frames to the player unfortunately... It's just a limitation of how the scripting works. But, an end of level victory animation or something would be cool, and possible to do with scripting. Also, if you can draw smoke and sparks, you could be very useful to me :)

[doomjedi]

Cool, I'll work on that on the weekend!!! No problemo. Victory animation for the doomguy you mean? Any specific ideas how it should look? (or you are giving me a full imagination freedom?)
Is this THE ONLY doomguy animation that can be added with scripting?
Can you gimme the resolution/size of the sparks and smoke you need? (Very important)
Just a stupid question - can you just get already-made smoke/sparks images from somewhere on the big net? The doomguy frames are hard to find, so I'll make those, but smoke and sparks?

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Yeah, a victory animation is pretty much the only one. You have complete freedom as to how you want it to look.

I've looked around through several games, but there isn't really anything that fits the Doom palette or style well. Standard Doom res would be best, since Legacy doesn't support hi-res stuff like Jdoom does yet.

For the sparks, something very small, like 6x6 or whatever would be good - they'll basically be used as particles for when a bullet hits a wall. For the smoke, something like this: http://www.geocities.com/toxic_fluff/smoke.txt(34x28) but bigger.

[doomjedi]

Ok, I've got you, after this weekend half-promice to have that made, and post the anigif (and if you'll like it, later the zipped framepack) :)
Can't you include also a "begin_of_level animation"? (Him loading/preparing the weapons for example?)

//update: here it is - tell me if you like it (took me only 2 hours to make...:) )

http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/30/8926737/preview1.gif

Update: Please notice I updated the anigif image, correcting some animation bugs.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Heh, that's awesome - pretty much exactly what I was looking for. If you can make a beginning of level animation, I can put it in.

[doomjedi]

Sure, no problem, I'll make the animation :)
I'm glad you liked the animation :) :)

//update: Here it is: (Tell me what you think :) - more than an hour of work)

http://wmh.walla.co.il/community/2004/1/30/8927420/preview2.gif

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Heh, once again thanks a lot: good work, I really like it. The only thing I don't like, is the way he looks around... maybe you could just turn his head back and forth a bit?

Anyway, send the animation files to me at robenestobenz@toxicfluff.fsnet.co.uk and I'll put them in tonight.


//Edit: Actually, the .gif doesn't look compressed, so if you want I'll just get the frames from that :)

[doomjedi]

Sure, no problem :)
I'll fix the animation and send the files to you
And I'll work on the sparks and smoke.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Thanks a lot man, I'm gonna get them working tonight. Maybe post some pics of them in-game tomorrow :)

[doomjedi]

It's just soooo cool, what an honour! :)

update// already corrected the animation, i'll udpate the anigif post and send the file to you. But notice-not all frame delays are equal, in anigifs you can see that, so I trust you to make an appropriate delay in the game, for animation to look as real as in my anigifs...
I'll send you the anigifs as well so you can see exactly what delays I was using to make the animation realistic - open it in any anigif program. If you want, I can just write you the frame delays - by order.
Anything else you would like me to make for you? :)

update: I just sent you the files, I hope you'll get them :D

[ToXiCFLUFF]

They look awesome!

[doomjedi]

Thanks !!!!!:p
Actually now I see a green line bug in one of the frames...I'll fix it and send you the update... actually this is barely visible, so no rush

There is a point I don't quite understand, and I'll glad if you could clear it out for me - how can you add all the grenade frames and other addons to the original doom sprites, yet you can't add doomguy sprites? Are you using the sprites from the original wad as grenade sprite, and stuff like that?

update: What's going on? did you put the animation in?
But the way, a question - in multiplayer, the animation skin will change it's colour or stay green?