keen doom

[thund3r]

any1 know when keen doom is coming out? or whos incharge of it? coz i really wanna play it!

[ToXiCFLUFF]

They declined my generous offer to use my sidescroller system which powers my mod Doomsplat so it's going to suck anyway :P

[Player_of_Doom]

never even heard of this project. it probably sucks.

[Scuba Steve]

They declined my generous offer to use my sidescroller system which powers my mod Doomsplat so it's going to suck anyway :P Sidescrolling system?

[ToXiCFLUFF]

I'm making a sidescroller mod for Legacy. Basically, it's a shooter with Doom enemies, bosses, 10 new weapons and the usual retro-platformer style score, powerups, secrets and bar-style HUD etc, The gameplay is 2D, but the environment isn't and uhh... there's lots of stuff. Some of your graphics have ended up in there actually.

[iori]

Declined the DoomSplat 'Engine'?! What were these people thinking! ...Oh, and ive never even heard of this project before now...
Hey toxic - are there any more WIP screens of doomsplat you can show us? Or is it still under wraps?

[doomjedi]

Hei, make it multiplayer coop and splitscreen deathmatch capable
Actually I had such a 2D doom game I downloaded from one of Russian freeware sites, so you're not original, also with 2-player capabilities. just find it and you can you it as reference. I just didn't like the controls, so I deleted the game.
In general I think it's a great idea, 2D game with DOOM graphics and spirit, I hope user editable as well, like Doomsday (deds, graphics...). You can play such a game in coop even with up to 4 players at one comp...
I think you should use the Contra-style level, gaming and 8-dir shooting, some kind of a contraDOOM... Contra was the best scroll 2d-shooting action aver made.

[Exl]

Read again DoomJedi, his game is simply a WAD for Doom Legacy, not a separate game.

[doomjedi]

Well, sorry for my mistake, it's great idea anyway.
And I think a 2D well-made DOOM scroller is still is cool idea to implement

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Hei, make it multiplayer coop and splitscreen deathmatch capable
Actually I had such a 2D doom game I downloaded from one of Russian freeware sites, so you're not original, also with 2-player capabilities. just find it and you can you it as reference. I just didn't like the controls, so I deleted the game.
In general I think it's a great idea, 2D game with DOOM graphics and spirit, I hope user editable as well, like Doomsday (deds, graphics...). You can play such a game in coop even with up to 4 players at one comp...
I think you should use the Contra-style level, gaming and 8-dir shooting, some kind of a contraDOOM... Contra was the best scroll 2d-shooting action aver made.

1| I played the 2D Doom game and I agree that it was goddamn awful, the controls were very stiff and the levels sucked. Doomsplat has been more fun to play than that piece of shit for a while now.
2| Doomsplats's very easy to edit, adding new weapons and levels is a breeze
3| The single player version will be released a while before the multiplayer, it's going to be fairly difficult to do without Array functions in Legacy. Multiplayer will mainly be DM and an Assault type mode (wierd sounding I know). Coop may not be doable...
3| You can only shoot straight ahead - this is a gameplay decision and gives rise to some interesting situations. It also makes the thrown items more effective and necessary.
5| Metal Slug is the best 2D-shooter ever made in my opinion.

Iori: I was actually getting close to releasing some screenshots, but I've just figured out a way of vastly improving the particle system. Since this is used for a lot of the mod's effects, it just isn't the best time right now. Expect them soon though.

[doomjedi]

Shooting only straight ahead? Why???????? I like the "using items" idea, but why only straight ahead? Why does it gives a rise for interesting situations? Don't you like the Contra style gameplay, don't you think that's fun and gives rise for much more interesting situations? why to limit yourself that way? Or is the 8-direction "contra" aiming just too hard to implement in DOOM? That reason I could fairly understand, if it is so, just admit it.
I like very much Doomsplat being "editable". This was very important.
In multiplayer:
1. Deathmatch will be splitscreen, or only client-server? Splitscreen is very much fun. Can't you make at least splitscreen version for Legacy?
2. Why assault is doable and coop isn't doable? what is the big difference? and why can't you overcome the implementation problems
3. I still think Contra has the best action gameplay ever. But that's just my opinion...

[ToXiCFLUFF]

1| Basically, I could implement Abuse style aiming (aim with the mouse, move with the keyboard), but that would make the game too easy. It's less useful than you might think, since you cannot shoot enemies on platforms above you, like you could in many 2d-shooters - the platforms are solid. Some gameplay reasons are: It makes the flying enemies a real challenge
There are certain weapons which spread upwards, which adds balance to the weapon set - the player can't always run around with the strongest weapon.
It adds emphasis on the thrown items/grenades.
It makes the bosses' weak points harder to hit.
2| Due to current limitations in Legacy, splitscreen isn't possible, at least not in any decent way. The camera function in Legacy can not be set for specific players, so you would have a splitscreen showing the same thing twice.
3| Coop isn't possible because Legacy doesn't currently have arrays, and so the workaround I'm using is fairly slow - having 2,3, 4 players in a level with a load of monsters would probably just slow things down too much at the moment. I will try, but I doubt it's doable without arrays. Deathmatch and a simple assault type gamemode is much faster, since there is only the players to take care of.

Thinking about it, the scoring system is one of the biggest speed hogs, I could just strip it out of the Co-op. I'll try to figure something out anyway. Although the deathmatch is undoubtedly going to be the most fun.

why can't you overcome the implementation problemsRemember, I'm not a programmer. I'm making what is basically a new game with a scripting language designed primarily for adding special effects into levels. The scripting handles the weapons, the fall damage, the powerups, the HUD, the particle system, the scoring system, the camera system etc, etc, etc, It's fairly demanding stuff for a lightweight scripting language.

[doomjedi]

Excuse me...?? What? May I ask you something? -When did you update your Legacy port?
Legacy implemented splitscreen, bots, coop, and deathmatch long time ago!!!!! (yes, with different views for each player and all!) It currently have all of that, so what's the matter? you can just use Legacy or Legacy code for an ideas how to implement the splitscreen. 2D DOOM splitscreen can't possibly be more complicated than the 3D DOOM splitscreen.
And no slowdown problems whatsoever!
About the abuse gameplay, I hate it, contra gameplay is better and more fun. That's exacty the point, the "abuse-style" mouseaim is too easy, you're right about that, but 8 direction "contra" aim is harder, you need to be on a certain angle from the monster to hit the monster, which is not too easy, you need to be not too far from the flying monster, you need to get close (alive), and that's the skill. You are talking about flying monsters, but what about monsters on a platforms which are on lowere levels...
By the way, a question - at least jumping and ducking will be implemented?
Beside grenades, which is really very cool, how about landmines (put and retreat, see monster explode?) ? controlled pipebombs/grenades like in duke3d? timed grenades? gasbombs like in hexen where the gas stays a while?
holo-doomguy like in duke3d to confuse them? defence shild?mortar weapon and mortar grenade launcher? and other items- I can give you tons of ideas :)

[Scuba Steve]

Toxic... Have you ever considered the Metal slug style aiming method? You'll only be able to shoot straight and vertical, which is still challenging, but eliminates the frustration of being unable to shoot some things right above you.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Toxic... Have you ever considered the Metal slug style aiming method? You'll only be able to shoot straight and vertical, which is still challenging, but eliminates the frustration of being unable to shoot some things right above you. I have considered it, but it seems to play well to me at the moment. The other problem is that there's no Doomguy animations for him looking up, so this would look ridiculous. Anyway, that kind of situation is what the grenades are for.

Doomjedi: Splitscreen, coop and bots are all implemented in Legacy, but I don't think you understand: I am not a programmer. I'm doing major gameplay changes via scripting, which Legacy has limited support for in multiplayer anyway. The splitscreen doesn't work because it sets all player's views to the same camera (the one which follows the players from the side).

I don't like passive weapons, so mines are out. Timed bombs are out too, since they slow pace down. A shield, grenades, and some other stuff are all in item slots. Jumping is enabled, as was jumpjetting, but I've removed the jumpjet on most levels. Anyway, I'm keeping the best stuff secret for now.

[doomjedi]

As we don't use in 2D most of the players animation sprites, can"t we just somehow replace them with the the player looking 8 direction sprites? I can draw them easily, if that's the problem...
If you don't l like passive weapons, at least make it possible for us to add them (make weapons editable/addible)
You didn't unswer, is ducking enabled, or do you have playersprite problems with that too? I can make the sprite images if you want...
I still would like Contra-style aiming somehow implemented. Even if you don't like it. At least make us select the aiming in the options...
I understand you are not a programmer, so am I, how can I do such scripting editing as well?

[Scuba Steve]

The other problem is that there's no Doomguy animations for him looking up, so this would look ridiculous. If this is the biggest reason stopping you, I could lend a hand. Since this is sidescroller it requires drawing one frame. And if you need 5 directions... that wouldn't be too hard either since there's no animation to shooting.

[doomjedi]

Toxic... Have you ever considered the Metal slug style aiming method? You'll only be able to shoot straight and vertical, which is still challenging, but eliminates the frustration of being unable to shoot some things right above you. I have considered it, but it seems to play well to me at the moment. The other problem is that there's no Doomguy animations for him looking up, so this would look ridiculous. Anyway, that kind of situation is what the grenades are for.
I already said - if you need the frames of doomguy looking up, or in a Contra-style directions, I can draw you the frames, just find your way to somehow add them to the game and make the game load the appropriatly for 8 dir shooting...
Here are some frames I did as a preview of what I can do (took me only about half an hour to make those, I can make you a shooting/walking images too-just ask me to help you...I'm good in those things)
http://www.geocities.com/maxgenis/external/PLAYG12.bmp http://www.geocities.com/maxgenis/external/PLAYG1.bmp http://www.geocities.com/maxgenis/external/PLAYG3G71.bmp http://www.geocities.com/maxgenis/external/PLAYG3G72.bmp http://www.geocities.com/maxgenis/external/PLAYG2G82.bmp http://www.geocities.com/maxgenis/external/PLAYG2G8.bmp

Do they look ridiculous to you?

I'll make a full contra-style doomguy frame pack in about a week, especially if you'll show some interest in what I'm talking here about.
I can also make you some cool player death animations for random/different kind of death loading... ;) I especially love making death animations...

And another thing - if I'll make you much more enhanced frame pack - can you do the mod in the "Demolution Man" (Sega Genesis) style (which is an enhanced contra style - rolling, hanging from bars shooting all direction, arm hanging&horizontal moving while shooting, shooting down, throwing grenades and stuff, climbing walls and shooting while climbing? Demolution Man is the next contra generation really... One of the best gameplays. If you never played it - you just MUST, if you want to have a good reference of making a great scroller action game!!!! Just try to play it, you'll see what i'm talking about. If you release such a game, make it with all those abilities - that would make a game that can be not much less popular than JDOOM... THINK BIG. I always do ;)