Enemy teleports

[psyren]

This is a simple imp ambush room I made. The idea being that it is empty at first, then waves of enemies teleport in. This one works just fine. Fire a shot and the imps are all over you.

However, to do this I had to cut sound passages through the walls and camoflage the holes.

In levels I have seen, the monsters are in a separate room completely away from the rest of the map. How do I do this and get the monsters to move through the teleport? Without the sound tunnel, the monsters have no reason to cross the teleport line.


http://www.wvi.com/~jsgraham/teletest.gif

[Exl]

It could be because of REJECT tricks - or just simply because that remote sector is one with another part of the map (if you know about the Ctrl+J thing in Doom Builder then you know what I mean).

[DoomedAce]

Ah yes... I had problems with this too. A few simple things to check (You'll prolly say "duh!" to some of these. Don't. When something doesn't work, it's best to check it step by step. It's the best way to solve problems.)

1. Check whether the Imps can hear you. They have to walk across the teleporter-linedef, of course. Make sure that they're not "Deaf", and that the sound can reach them.
2. Check whether the Imps can actually cross the linedef. Make sure the floor that comes after it isn't too high for them.
3. Check whether you used the correct linedef type.
4. Check whether you placed the tags correctly. Let's say you used Tag 1, 2 and 3. The linedefs should have tag 1, 2 and 3 and the sector(s) should have tag 1, 2 and 3 as well. (Be sure to check whether you filled in the sector-tag in the sector-menu, not in the linedef-menu. WadAuthor's menus are bit confusing sometimes when it comes to this, and it's easy to make a mistake here.)
5. Check whether you placed the destination-things in the sector(s) (Which you did, as I can see.)

That's it. Should work if this is all correct.

[PumpkinSmasher]

Simple trick here. Make a new small sector in the north room with the monsters, and then change the sector number of this new sector to the sector number of the room you want the player in when the monsters start teleporting. This way the monster hear the player since its the same sector.

If that sounds complicated, you can send me your map and I can do this for you.

[psyren]

Ah! I understand that! I was not aware I could have separate sectors of the same number. So, even if the other sector is completely isolated from the rest of the map, the monsters can hear you (provided they are not deaf) if the sector numbers are the same?

I will try this, Thank you very much! :)

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Ah! I understand that! I was not aware I could have separate sectors of the same number. So, even if the other sector is completely isolated from the rest of the map, the monsters can hear you (provided they are not deaf) if the sector numbers are the same?

I will try this, Thank you very much! :)

In some cases, such as with small decorative sectors, it often makes sense to combine sectors with the same attributes. Saves compile time and filesize.

[psyren]

Hey, That makes sense to...I did not know that either.

WadAuthor will allow me to change the sector numbers and that worked just as I wanted it to, but it seems to decide a "sector is not closed" every now and then. I think that is just a bug in that program. Running the map through Doom Builder usually fixes it though.

Thanx alot for the help :)

[iori]

If a sector is not closed, it means that in regular doom2 there will be HOM's or other nasty effects. Its good practice to remove these, and all you have to do is make sure the lines of a sector correspond to the sectors around it in Number.

[Sector 1] [Joining Line] [Sector 2]
--------- | --------------
| 1 | 3 |
| 1 ----| 2 |
| | |
| | |
--------- -------------


In my PRO ascii example, the back of the linedef that joins the swo sectors is labelled '3' when it should be '2'. Thats an unclosed sector ;)

...it makes sence to me....lol

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Hey, That makes sense to...I did not know that either.

WadAuthor will allow me to change the sector numbers and that worked just as I wanted it to, but it seems to decide a "sector is not closed" every now and then. I think that is just a bug in that program. Running the map through Doom Builder usually fixes it though.

Thanx alot for the help :)

Change the sector numbers via the sidedefs in Wadauthor, because renumbering the sectors in the way you are doing (the logical way) will occasionally mess up your map's sector settings due to a bug in WA..

[Doom_Dude]

Here is anouther idea for this that I used recently. I set up a 64x64 teleport off of a hallway. I placed one deaf monster on the teleport pad. The other monsters won't teleport out of the holding sector while the one dude is standing in the spawn point. Once the monster see the player and moves off the teleport pad, then the others beam out. This way I don't have to have a wall drop inside the holding sector.

[psyren]

That's a cool idea too Doom_Dude. I have seen that "wall drop" or remote door inside the holding sector of wads I examined trying to learn about this, and now understand it must be to block sound.

In my first maps, the only way I knew how to make a surprise ambush was with a wall drop or remote door adjacent to the room where it takes place. This is inconvenient, since I have to make room for this holding sector if it is an afterthought. And monsters teleporting in out of nowhere is much more of a surprise than seeing a line on the map that you just KNOW is going to open sometime. :)

[psyren]

Oh, and in regards to the info from ToxiCFLUFF and iori: Checking the sector associations of the line/sidedefs when I get these "sector not closed" errors will prolly save me a lot of time and headaches in the future. Just another thing I never thought to check.

I try to remember to check and save often, since I never know when WadAuthor is going to do this to me. My only solution has been to try and delete sectors and lines until everything is closed again. Sometimes it is a domino effect where closing one leaves a different sector open. I have lost hours of work because of this, so I am very thankful for these tips. :)

I have found where to change these associations now, and anticipate that 90% of my problems using this program can be corrected very simply in the future.

Many gracious thanx! :D

BTW, I did try to post this response earlier, but lost connection and my message never posted.

[Doom_Dude]

That's a cool idea too Doom_Dude. I have seen that "wall drop" or remote door inside the holding sector of wads I examined trying to learn about this, and now understand it must be to block sound.

As far as I know the wall usually drops to allow the critters to cross the line that teleports them. You can also have a couple of lines or more that the monsters cross that teleport them to different spots in your map. ;)

[psyren]

Wow! Well that's beyond me Doom_Dude! I only been into making maps since December!

I love people still makes maps for original Doom2, (like you!:) Mordeth, 99ways, Alien Vendetta, Requiem, (and Vilecore) my inspiration and showing me all the tricks to make kickass maps I can only hope to equal.

It is a great thing about knowledge that it can pass from one to another with no real cost. You give me something without really losing it at all yourself.

I think that is true with all gifts of mind and everything we can give to another in this format: We give but we can't lose in this format. Knowledge is a treasure laid up in Heaven

[DoomedAce]

I usually use the floor-drop to allow the demons to teleport. Or the opposite, the ceiling-raise, which allows the monsters to make it through the teleporter more quickly.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Hey, That makes sense to...I did not know that either.

WadAuthor will allow me to change the sector numbers and that worked just as I wanted it to, but it seems to decide a "sector is not closed" every now and then. I think that is just a bug in that program. Running the map through Doom Builder usually fixes it though.

Thanx alot for the help :)

No problem man, but I do recommend switching to DB - it's harder to fuck up in, and will speed up your productivity a lot once you get comfortable with it. If you do try to switch, keep wadauthor around, since it's good for error checking.

[Doom_Dude]

You may have only been doing this stuff since December but you've stuck with it this far so thats a great start methinks.

Like DoomedAce said you can do the floor drop too which I think I've used more often and I think it's less audible than a door opening.

[psyren]

I do have DB installed and use it quite often. I just can't figure out how to make it do anything. I can check other maps to find how things are done, (only way I can see anything besides map01.)

Every once in a while playing with it in lines mode, I actually start drawing lines, but I don't know what I did, then I can't figure how to change sector heights, etc. It just doesn't click with me somehow, but I know to get very advanced at this I need to learn how to use it. (The keyboard commands in conjuction with mouse are not intuitive for me.)

You, (Doom_Dude,) should put the thread back up for DBEG. I have it saved, but I was constantly checking it and also sending other people there with questions.

Using WA is not always so intuitive either most times. Very frustrating. Most of the things it does automatically it fux up and takes me more time to fix than if I had done it myself before. But, I learn NOT to hit that "fix all" button when it is just missing above/below textures, because it NEVER puts the one in it is supposed to.

Anyway, I haven't found anything yet WA won't do, (thanks to you guys giving me things to check that I am/was ignorant of.) I still end up spending 10x more time fixing all the details to make it look good as I do in designing a map in the first place. From what I read and see and play, I feel that is what makes the difference between a good map and one that no one will ever talk about much. :)

[DoomedAce]

I once used WA too. The thing that irritated me the most was that it's quite difficult to select sectors when several of them are crammed into a small area. Or when some of them are extremely long or stretched out. WA only lets you select a sector if you click exactly in the center of one. This makes it exceedingly difficult to select a sector that occupies multiple closed areas across the map.

A second thing that irritated me was that when I sticked two sectors together, the program would often screw up the newly joined linedef's front- and backside, resulting in a "bad sector" error.

Basically, the only advantage WA has over DB is the "Check Map" option, which will immediately reveal some basic errors.

Because of all this, and because of the awesome 3D mode, I switched from WA to DB. It took me a while to get used to it, but now I can create maps much faster than I could before with WA.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

Right click on a sector, and you'll have a dialog box pop up where you can change sector heights. In 3d mode though, you do have to use the numpad+- keyboard command. Or bind it to something you feel more comfortable with.

Just, the line drawing tool works in the same way as WA's sector based drawing, except it can draw different shapes. Just make sure the line doesn't cross over itself and you'll be fine..

[psyren]

I have fought with both of the problems you described, DoomedAce. Very aggravating indeed!

The Check map option also has a way of ignoring missing textures behind moving sectors. (Activate a lift and find a HOM I forgot about.)

I did try working more with DB and made my first simple map. The only door I made didn't work, so I need to figure that out, but it definately has some great features that WA can't come close to for productivity.

Now that I actually got something from it that plays, I think I will be spending a lot more time experimenting with it. :D

[ToXiCFLUFF]

I did try working more with DB and made my first simple map. The only door I made didn't work, so I need to figure that out, but it definately has some great features that WA can't come close to for productivity.
Yeah, I like the door creation tool in WA as well.

Door types with a # in the name in DB are the kind of doors where you don't need to tag the line to a sector. They work automatically on the sector they are attached to. You must make sure that the first sidedef is facing the direction the player will use the line from though.

[psyren]

Ah! Well that's it. I had type 63 instead of 1. WA doesn't use any of these numbers so that is all new.

Very cool to know if I choose a lindef action without the # symbol, then I have a sector to tag to it.

Prolly took me a week to figure out sectors and tags with WA. Not sure if DB will be any easier to use/learn in that respect, but I like it so far.

Thanx again :D

(Should change the name of this thread to "bonehead questions from newbies") :)

[psyren]

Another question for the more experienced: (sort of a related question and I didn't want to start another thread if someone still looks at this.)

I am trying to understand how destroying an enemy can trigger another event. IE: taking down the mancubus' in Doom2, level 07 causes the walls to lower and lets in the arachnotrons. Or, in Ultimate Doom, E2M8 ends when the cyberdemon is wasted.

I have looked at the maps with Doom Builder and can't find whatever it is that is used to do this. To further complicate the matter, DB revealed a room in the NW corner of "Dead Simple" with another exit switch, and the only tagged linedef I can find to lower the walls...and I have never seen this room open(?)

[ToXiCFLUFF]

There is a few special tags.... They will only work on their respective levels in all ports except Zdoom, in which they work in any map.

MAP07:
Sector tag 666 = lower sector when all arachnotrons are dead
Sector tag 667 = lower sector when all mancubi are dead

MAP32:
Sector tag 666 = lower sector when all keens are dead


//ahh bugger, didn't see you'd got a response in another thread.

[Doom_Dude]

//ahh bugger, didn't see you'd got a response in another thread.

LOL. That happens to me as well. *bug*

The keen jobby.... won't it work in all levels or is that a source port deal? /me can't remember.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

//ahh bugger, didn't see you'd got a response in another thread.

LOL. That happens to me as well. *bug*

The keen jobby.... won't it work in all levels or is that a source port deal? /me can't remember. Nah, just MAP32. You can use the tags in any level if you're editing with Zdoom though (lucky Zdoomers).

[psyren]

Yes, I did find out about it by posting another thread afterall. What a bummer. I was really hoping to do a wave after wave of enemies thing.

It would be quite a list to have special action tags for the death of each type of enemy.

I do have a new question though. (and if I can't find a proper existing thread to post it on, I will wait a few days, *cool* )

I have a room, 128 tall with a lava floor at height 0. You enter at a height of 64. (so floor is 64 above lava room, 64 below ceiling.)

I want to make a raising pedastle to jump to, to get across the lava, so I have a 64 square sector of the lava floor tagged, and a switch tagged to it to raise the floor to the next highest floor/texture. (linedef action 20.)

When I play this, the switch makes the clunking noise, the floor section changes from lava to the next highest floor texture, but it remains at a height of 0.

I have tried other actions: 18, 68, 69, 131, and 132 to get the floor to move up somehow and none of them will work. It will go up to the ceiling. It will go up 24 or 32. Why can't I get it to go up 64?

[The flange Peddler]

The Commander Keen 666 tag works on every level, even in doom2.exe. So I guess most source ports should allow it by default too.

I used it on map01 in a wad I made years ago, long before source ports even existed.

[ToXiCFLUFF]

When I play this, the switch makes the clunking noise, the floor section changes from lava to the next highest floor texture, but it remains at a height of 0. Ok, this is happening because the only surrounding sector's (the lava sector) height is also zero. The best thing to do here, is to make a sector outside of the level, with the height and floor/ceil attributes you want the pedestal to end up with. Then make a sector inside this sector, and merge it with your pedestal sector, so that that you have two separate areas of the pedestal sector - one inside the map and one outside of the map, surrounded by the sector with the properties you want it to obtain. Hopefully, it should now work.

Flange Peddler: I stand very corrected.


//Edit: Heh, I gave a redundant answer again, this time ousted by a reply on another forum. Oh well, anwyay, got it working yet?

[psyren]

Oh! Well, I did try all that with the dummy sectors but I still couldn't get it even though I understand the concept. I was so frustrated with it I finally sent it to Searcher and he fixed it, but at least I figured out what I did wrong.

I am presently fighting with another similar trick: the reverse almost. A raised circular floor that sinks into a pit revealing another central area inside. It worked just great the first time using the dummy sectors, except I wanted the pit floor to become lava this time and it remains normal. I have it working close enough I think I can figure it out though.

This map is sure giving me grief! I guess that happens when one tries too many experimental things at once.