Strife Sourceport Legal Issues

[rants]

Yeah it would but then again, Strife cannot be ported yet, only hacked bla bla bla :P

[Slide]

Yeah it would but then again, Strife cannot be ported yet, only hacked bla bla bla :P

Given the state of the Doom/Heretic/Hexen sourcecode - I can only think that redoing it is a good thing in the long run :)

[wizzyness]

It can not be done, Strife can not be legally ported, only hacked or of course illegaly ported [hacked in this case means that someone has figured out how strife works and makes an engine that does the same but just itherwise, however it is not legal to check a proggie's code!

[wizzyness]

Well I dont mind, but it is still a hack, maybe a positive but still. I like changes.

[lord-noctrun]

slide is right it's not fair and it is not really a hack, janis legzdinsh (the author of the vavoom engine) has put a huge effort reverse engineering how strife works and he has put the game back together in a way that it actual works (to a degree), noone would have dreamed about getting so far without the actual source code

[wizzyness]

slide is right it's not fair and it is not really a hack, janis legzdinsh (the author of the vavoom engine) has put a huge effort reverse engineering how strife works and he has put the game back together in a way that it actual works (to a degree), noone would have dreamed about getting so far without the actual source code

So the fact that someone puts lots of effort to something. Changes it from being a hack to being a port? Quite weird I'd say.

A hack is either the result of someone figuring out how somthing works alike or, to break into someone's computer or such.

[lord-noctrun]

So the fact that someone puts lots of effort to something. Changes it from being a hack to being a port? Quite weird I'd say.

A hack is either the result of someone figuring out how somthing works alike or, to break into someone's computer or such.

no a hack is a (impropper) coding style, what you mean is reverse engineering and the result of reverse engineering is not automatically a hack

[Slide]

I think that when you say hack you mean it won't be a proper sourceport - while we hear it as sloppy/hashed code. But if you have another look at the first post in this thread I say that jStrife is really an emulation project - not a straight sourceport project.

But like I said before as long as it works...

[Sin4U]

slowly, with very bad support for expansion... yeah.
Just a note, Hack: quick'n'dirty code, Crack; finding a hole in code security, Reverse Engineering; Guessing as to how something does something by 'black box' testing, ie, seeing what happens at the end. Some things are near-impossible to RE though, like custom random number generators, meaning you can never get that behavior exactly the same. And you should all know what a Source port is. (actually, Doomsday isnt really a source PORT, unless you mean a port to modern hardware graphics cards. Which still doesnt explain inFine and the rest of the stuff.)

[wizzyness]

A hack also means a failure more or less, like mentioned above by lord noctrun. BUT it also mean what I stated up there!

[Sin4U]

wizzyness, I suggest you read a geek dictionary (Im sure theres at least one, Ive seen them for street talk, and we MADE the internet) I have never seen anyone reffer to a coding failure as a hack. A hack may lead to bugs, but it aint one itself. (Also, just to be precise, a bug is any behavior that is unwanted by the end user/client of the software. Which means something as simple as the game is too hard is a bug, although that is stretching it a bit. Not as some programmers DONT say, which is code which can be exploited to make them not make money. (think MS, duh, but others too))
now before we get back to the topic, a hack is any code which is written quickly, without adhering to good coding practice, which doesnt matter to the end user untill any attempt to add functionality is thwarted by the collection of bad code. an example in Doomsday is preventing sprites that start sticking into the sky from getting their heads cut off by simply moving the sky up. As you can see, although this is unlikely to add any bugs or problems, it isnt the best way to do this, and may cause problems in the future, say when proper floor over floor may be added. (note that this isnt an attempt to bash SkyJake, I dont want my sprites sticking in to sky's any more than you do)
NOW, back to topic, I think it may be a reasonable Idea to give a short blurb on what Strife is, since it is obvious people like be and Caden dont know what anything game specific means.

[wizzyness]

Maybe this clear out things; http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/search?p=hack&x=32&y=11

and Sin4u, geek dictionary? You think you have that much knowledge don't you? I got to tell you LAD. I have had about 60 systems in a few years, I am not rich but I can tell you that I know what a hack is, A hack is the reason why bugs appear, so you did a failure, you didnt do very well. nuff said.

[wizzyness]

Now when you know that the fact remains, how to port it? Only legal way whatsoever is to figure out how all stuff works alike, sure you could use the vavoom one as you are not the responisible one for hacking the orig source, now you get to the point though, it is way tot unfinished so you'd have to hack the source again to see how orig really works alike, but that is still illegal and such things should not be accepted on a forum like this. So what to do is either waiting to get source released which will probably never happen since the company is down. Not much other choice than to let it die.

[Slide]

Wizzyness - this line of conversation isn't really helpful. Fair enough you don't think it's possible and it's a hack let's move on. As for it not being suitable for a forum like this that's for the mods (ahem) and ultimately Pheobus to decide. Emulators are generally accepted as good non illegal programs that are reversed enginneered without nearly as much documentation or any source code being available (and we have the vanilla Doom Engine as a starting point). Let's not labour this anymore, you made you're point.

Anyway back to the issue. No it's not gonna be easy - it would be great to reverse engineer a parser for the scripts within Strife - the Vavoom author indicated he had done this manually with provides hope for a automatic method that a potential jStrife could use. Personally I think the maps themselves will be reasonably easy to convert as the level editors already know the format - the main problems will definitely be the rpg elements.

[lord-noctrun]

Now when you know that the fact remains, how to port it? Only legal way whatsoever is to figure out how all stuff works alike, sure you could use the vavoom one as you are not the responisible one for hacking the orig source, now you get to the point though, it is way tot unfinished so you'd have to hack the source again to see how orig really works alike, but that is still illegal and such things should not be accepted on a forum like this. So what to do is either waiting to get source released which will probably never happen since the company is down. Not much other choice than to let it die.

what is illegal? nothing is illegal about vavooms strife support downloading gamedata off a warez site is illegal figuring out how something works is not illegal if it where the deepsea level editor (as an example) would have never survived all those years

[draconx]

I'm prety sure reverse-engineering is protected by fair use....

[Slide]

We're not talking about ripping the source code apart we're talking about figuring out how to make a game dll that can process a registered IWAD and emulate the behaviour of the original Strife - if you want me to start listing similar projects I can (WINE, Console Emulators, the original IBM BIOS - that led to cloned IBM PCs, Virtual PC products). Not to mention that Vavoom or anyone else hasn't had any problems or frankly is likely to.

Let's not have this thread to turn into a legal debate - start a new thread in 'Other Source Ports' if you're really desperate to discuss this further this really isn't the place.

[draconx]

Also dont forget Exult (exult.sourceforge.net) - which is actually a reverse-engineered game.

[wizzyness]

And how the heck can you figure out how strife works without checking it's code? and if you do - then you have commited a crime which... it does not matter how many others that has done it or not, the fact is that it is as illegal as looking into any new games's code's as ut2k3 or such.
Im not going to help you do a shit unlawful, if you wanna do something illegal you will pay for it. and so will you deserve.
and just figuring out how things work alike in the game, is kinda hard if not impossible, so what are you stating "a criminal's diary"?
Now what should be done is that this thread should be closed and no further more should it be talked about.

[lord-noctrun]

am a strife mod (or any other game like the wolf3d mod discussed in this form) is illegal because it most likely distributes artwork of the original game (the doom64 team knows that they can be foxed very fast if midway or whoever did the game would care about doom64) as skyjake says it cannot be that a game can be played without the original data, writing something that can use the legally optained game data is not illegal at all, btw the sources of strife are not available in any way you can't base anything on that code

enough of the legal/illegal talk

[Sin4U]

both were released as well becasue raven are nice... they did the same thing at the same time because they wanted to.
as for legality, WE HAVE GONE OVER THIS! it is NOT illegal to replicate behavior, which is reverse engineering. What the heck are you talking about, wizzyness? if you read the FIRST POST here, you see:
"Discussion into the emulation of Strife with the Doomsday Engine.

As doom ports are starting to acquire Strife support; jStrife is becoming more of a possibility."
If you did know what you were talking about, you would lay off with the crap here. "And how the heck can you figure out how strife works without checking it's code?" Its called reverse engineering: we see what it does, like what data it reads, and write TOTALLY NEW code to do the same thing. If you do it properly, you get effectively the same program, but you know its source, and since you wrote it, its not illegal. Now you have made your veiw clear, drop it, or you will be kicked.
And noctrun, the whole point of the jX .dll engines is they can run the original data. So its not illegal. Anything else is a MOD, not an EMULATOR.

[draconx]

Wizzyness, think of it this way, if you have a machine that flashes a series of lights. You don't have the instructions on how to build it, but you can still open it up, see how it works, and build your own light-flashing machine. You have just reverse-engineered a flashing light machine.

The same is true for software. Think of the code as the "instruction booklet" for the software, telling the computer how to build it. Without the instruction booklet, you can still take a look at the finished product and see how it was made.

[Sin4U]

well, to be more exact, a CLOSED black box, with flashing lights. (hence black box testing) Although you dont know the exact wiring, you can guess, and use what you know about electronics to make the lights flash in the same pattern. Of course, for all you know, there's a gremlin poking wires in the right places in the box you are copying, but IT DOESNT MATTER. And since the box you made has nothing in common (with the exenuating curcumtsance of you working your ass of to make it) except the end result, you have made a different product. No legal problems.
Of course there are de-compilers and code tracers which can trace exactly what code does what, and rip out a nasty version of the source that would make it, but that is both ugly and TOTALY illegal. I think.

[JHXI8248]

In the USA you can clone a program legally. You can reverse engineer it to determine functionality or to create add-ons (except to circumvent security). But you can not use any of the original program's code in your own creation without permission from the owner. This has been upheld in many court cases. Some companies reverse-engineered Nintendo consoles in order to create compatible games without a license or developer's kit. It's no different than making an oil filter for a car that is compatible with the existing one.

A recent example of this is FreeCraft which was a WarCraft clone. They closed when Blizzard threatened to sue them. Legally, the FreeCraft team did not have anything to worry about since they created the code and resources from scratch, but they chose to not fight it.

[PumpkinSmasher]

All this makes me glad that I'm not a lawyer. These laws can all get confusing.

[lord-noctrun]

And noctrun, the whole point of the jX .dll engines is they can run the original data. So its not illegal. Anything else is a MOD, not an EMULATOR.

oh I know, but some people starting tcs for doomsday seem to forget about it

[Gokuma]

In the USA you can clone a program legally.

I think that's why asshole companies are trying get these BS software patents instead of just copyrights, so that people aren't allowed to do the same thing even if they didn't take a single peak at some code. But that's another story.

Former Rogue employees want to release the Strife code, but it got lost when Rogue sold off equipment. And of course it's based the Doom source which is already GPL'ed.