Doom Builder Sneak Preview [Archive]

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Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 04:48 AM

Time to shoot some screenies of Doom Builder, my upcoming map editor. This is all in alpha-stage so if you dont like it or if you're missing something, go away, buhbye, ciao!

Here are the 4 editing modes: [vertices (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db1.gif)] [lines (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db2.gif)] [sectors (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db3.gif)] [things (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db4.gif)]
Nothing interesting really.

Here you can see editing a single line: [line edit (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db5.gif)]
Here you see the texture browser. The flats browser is the same, just filled with flats http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif [texture browser (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db6.gif)]
Last (for now) but not least, it works great with huge maps too! (here shown AV MAP20) [phat map (http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db7.gif)]

ktnxbye!
Â*

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Doom_Dude

May 6th, 2003, 05:59 AM

SWHEET!!!!!!!!!

I really like what I see in those screenshots Gherkin. Looks like you got a lot done on it so far. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm35.gif

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Jow

May 6th, 2003, 06:09 AM

Looks very good.

ToXiCFLUFF

May 6th, 2003, 07:42 AM

Nice looking stuff Gherkin. Always good to see another editor come onto the scene. Every new editor/prog/wad is an act of generosity towards the doom scene http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif Looks very legible and clear. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Anyway, would you be able to make it so that you could select what key does what command? For instance being able to assign the bring up current selection's properties menu to any key, or being able to choose what key performs a merge vertices command etc,

That way it would be easier for people who use other editors to adjust, as they could just set up the shortcuts to whatever they are used to.

Just a thought, anyway keep up with the good work and keep us informed.

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Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 08:24 AM

Thanks http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif
Yea, I still have to make configuration dialogs for all kinda things. Right now I just change things in the config file when I want something different, heh. I think I can make such bind keys configuration. But I keep the mouse the same; Left click to select/deselect, Left drag to move the selection around, Right click to edit selection. (When no selection is made, the highlighted object is the selection)
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Jow

May 6th, 2003, 09:23 AM

Do you make a support for all sort of custom stuff: Textures, flats, things and line and sector types?

Most currently available editors lacks that.

The map editor works in Win XP?

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 10:22 AM

The editor does respect exisitng lumps in maps and depending on the configuration you choose on loading a map, it even copies lumps that belong with the map when you save it (like MAPINFO or something). I might even put in a small text editor to edit the map header lump and other text lumps. But I will NOT add all kinda features that allow you to import/export/edit/move/mess with lumps. This is a MAP editor, if you want to edit lumps manually, get yourself a WAD editor.

The editor will have known linedef types and flags and that kinda shit for different engines and games. You can even add your own if you feel the need to, its all text config files.

When you load a map, Textures and Flats are loaded from both the chosen IWAD and the map being loaded, but you can also enter any custom texture/flat name if you wish.

I havent tested on XP, but it generally always works on XP when it does in 2K. Ill test some day later ofcourse, because there are always different things between those OS'.
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Jow

May 6th, 2003, 10:47 AM

I didn't mean that you add texture editors in it or sound editors, there's already 2 of that kind that I know and use in some way.

I have only one map editor now, and it's rather buggy, but it's the only free that "works" and lets me add custom stuff: textures, flats, linetypes, sectortypes, but not things, it always crashes if I try to add a thing that has a "wrong" ID number.

ReX

May 6th, 2003, 10:56 AM

Very nice, Gherkin.
1. Clean user interface.
2. Distinct colors.
3. Multiple-image texture browser.
4. Intuitive Linedef Properties menu
A few questions:
1. What is the minimum grid size?
2. Will the editor allow editing of maps for source ports?
3. Will you include a feature for sector-scaling?
4. Will there be an automatic x-alignment feature for multiple, contiguous selected lines? (I guess I don't really need to ask this question http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif)
5. Will there be functions for linedef splitting, setting linedef lengths, and making linedefs parallel?

Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 11:02 AM

Looks awesome Gherkin, will there be automatic texture alignment?

Looking foward to using this editor to make new maps, it's been like 2 years since I made Doom maps.

Jow

May 6th, 2003, 11:08 AM

What about flip sectors horizontally/vertically.

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 11:08 AM

1. What is the minimum grid size?
Minimum grid size is 2, maximum is 1024 (increases/decreases by multiply/divide of 2, custom values can be entered too). However, when the distance of the grid lines on the screen becomes lower than 4 due to zoom, it disappears. Else it would just become one big grey mess on your screen. Just zoom in for such high precision editing.

2. Will the editor allow editing of maps for source ports?
Not in a way like "click here and you'll have a 3D Floor", you will still have to do all the tricks yourself, like making control sector for Doom Legacy. This editor is pretty low-level, which makes it possible to do about everything you want (deep-water anyone?!). But in the configuration files, all kind of things, thing flags, line types, etc, can be configured, so in that way its does support ports.

3. Will you include a feature for sector-scaling?
Why not, doesnt sound too complicated http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

4. Will there be an automatic x-alignment feature for multiple, contiguous selected lines? (I guess I don't really need to ask this question )
Sure

5. Will there be functions for linedef splitting, setting linedef lengths, and making linedefs parallel?
You can drag vertices. Will align-to-grid and stitch-vertices features do the job?
Â*
Mr. Chris
Yea, there will be texture alignment features http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Jow
Yup sure. As well as undo/redo, copy/paste.

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Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 11:12 AM

Will there be error checking, and what node builder will it use? (Won't mind having the user choose the node builder to use)

Good job Gherkin http://www.hardcoreware.net/forum/images/smilies/righton.gif

I'm surprised Doomworld hasn't posted any news on this http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm13.gif

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 11:13 AM

Thanks http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Yea ill make error checking features. But only on the users command. The editor lets you do what you want to do. If you think screwing your map is cool, fine, do so http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif
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Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 11:15 AM

Even for an alpha, it's looking pretty spiffy. Are you gonna have a little logo show up like the way when DC3 loads?

It'll have an update.exe like DC3 will it, it'd be nice to get periodic updates to fix bugs and add features.

Kaiser

May 6th, 2003, 11:16 AM

hmm..interesting...

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 11:24 AM

Yea it has such a splash screen...
http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/splash.gif
The only problem I have is that theres not much to load at program startup, heh.

No auto-update stuff in here. Thats a nice feature on Doom Connector because its an application which requires internet and requires to be up-to-date to work in the service, but this editor can work standalone. Updates will be available from the website.
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Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 11:27 AM

Interesting...

What do you currently have planned to put in Doom Builder right now?

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 11:36 AM

Kinda all of the above answerred questions, heh. But I wont put in features that have nothing to do with MAP editing,... like importing/exporting lumps blabla, thats what WAD editors are for. Dont mix em, all you get is confused http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Oh and I use zennode nodebuilder by default. I hope Marc Rousseau wont have a problem with it if I ship it with the program by default. Ill make a config dialog for that too, in case you like to use another nodebuilder or change node building parameters.
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Espi

May 6th, 2003, 11:53 AM

Nice. Add a button to find a free tag number next to the tag box there tho. I wouldn't like to have to remember which tags I've used.

Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 11:59 AM

Will a backup option be made if you save over the first version of a map?

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 11:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Add a button to find a free tag number next to the tag box there tho. I wouldn't like to have to remember which tags I've used.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Consider that done http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Will a backup option be made if you save over the first version of a map?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Consider that done too http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif
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Doom_Dude

May 6th, 2003, 12:16 PM

I was thinking while using DoomCad it would be neat if there was a drop down list dealie with the default light levels for sectors. Then you could either type in what you want or just click on 144, 160, etc.......

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http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
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Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 12:37 PM

All I know sector brightness is a value from 0 to 255 (and the editor allows higher because its technically possible) so.. what are ALL the default sector light levels?
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dd_133

May 6th, 2003, 12:49 PM

AWESOME! i can't wait for it to come out...it beats al other Doom editors by a mile!

Agent Spork

May 6th, 2003, 01:04 PM

Ghekin is god!

Will there be any beta testers for it? :P

Pate

May 6th, 2003, 01:13 PM

That looks nice Gherkin. Have you coded much of the actual editing functionality or just the UI?

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Tired of crappy Doom editors? So was I, that's why I'm coding my own (http://www.hut.fi/~jpakkane/why/).

The Snugg Master

May 6th, 2003, 01:40 PM

Probably pushing it a bit, but it's an idea I've had for a while: For the new mappers, could you have buttons for preset shapes/linedefs/sidedefs/etc? (Ie: Pillars, Rooms, Lifts, Doors) that can be inserted to the map? This way, there can be a head start to creating maps, and the default presets can be modified so that Map-Making could be learned faster.

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 01:47 PM

Doom_Dude
What are ALL the default sector light levels that should be in the combobox?

Agent Spork
I will probably release a public beta, not sure through.

Pate
The GUI is almost finished, just need to add some more rendering stuff to it. As for the editing; Every object (line, sector...) can be single- or multi- selected and edited already. Dragging, deleting and adding new things is not done yet, about to do that.

The Snugg Master
Not for now yet. Like I said above, this editor is not for newbies. And that feature requires quite a bunch of work :\
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Doom_Dude

May 6th, 2003, 01:54 PM

As far as I know they're 16, 32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, 128, 144, 160, 176, 192, 208, 224, 240 and 255 but why they didn't make the last 256 is kinda weird. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

Here is where we was all talking about it awhile ago.

http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/Forum15/HTML/000307.html

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Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
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Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 02:06 PM

Cool. I've added them in a text-combobox instead of just a textbox. Thanks!
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Doom_Dude

May 6th, 2003, 02:16 PM

Hehe cool Gherkin. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm35.gif

Will we be able to change the grid color? http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
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Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 02:24 PM

You'll be able to change all colors.
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Pate

May 6th, 2003, 02:46 PM

I meant features that are "beyond DEU", such as proper sector splitting, intersections and stuff. GUI coding is easy but time-consuming. Coding those is hard and time-consuming. (at least it was/is for me)

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Tired of crappy Doom editors? So was I, that's why I'm coding my own (http://www.hut.fi/~jpakkane/why/).

Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 02:53 PM

I'm sure this will appeal to those stuck with DeepSea's limitatations or can't use the editor properly (IE such as myself.)

How about a stair prefab, one normal and one for rising stairs?

Palladium

May 6th, 2003, 03:35 PM

er.. Why not stick the default light levels in a Config file, then we can change them if we like, or add to them? all the linetypes will be stored in a Config file, including vanilladoom lines? Will it be able to load deepsea linetype and sector typr config files so we dont need to make our own, and if we do theyll be cross-editor compatible? Will we be able ot load Multiple resource wads? Something I always thot Deepsea was lacking is a sector&line tagging mode that allows you to Click a line, then a Sector and tag them to each other. It would save countless hours with complex lighting and tagging tricks, and would save many a mapper from many an unnesecary sore finger, wrist, and arm. Will you be leaving the option open to later design a Lump editor that will work flawlessly and seamlessly with the Map editor? If Deepsea didnt have Lump editing Functions built right in I wouldnt have ever even tried it. Lump Editing is Crucial for the Success of any wad or Map editor. I Despise having to close the Map editor, start the Lump editor, Fumble around in an unfamiliar interface looking for the Entry to modify that one texture that needs adjusting then closing the lump editor, Opening the Map editor, and finding that my new resource wad was corrupted when I saved it, and It overwrote the Old resource wad even tho I never told it to!

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celebrate the new found Freedom of a soul, as Death is, after all, but an escape from the Otherwise endless suffering of the real and tangible worlds.
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MR_ROCKET

May 6th, 2003, 03:51 PM

hey kick ass gherkin , damn i didnt even kow you were working on your editor lol , musta been top secret or something http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

LOOKS VERY NICE , is this the same one i remember from last summer you were working on , off an on?
i cant wait to try it out http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

ok now i read up , i just wanted to jump in here and tell yea what i thoght of the screenies http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif hell yea!

Gherkin

May 6th, 2003, 04:06 PM

Why not stick the default light levels in a Config file, then we can change them if we like, or add to them?
Good idea, ill do that.

all the linetypes will be stored in a Config file, including vanilladoom lines?
Yup, none of that stuff is hardcoded, you can all fuk with it.

Will it be able to load deepsea linetype and sector typr config files so we dont need to make our own, and if we do theyll be cross-editor compatible?
Nope, they are in the same kind of format as Doom Connector's configuration files and schemes. They are simple, flexible and I dont have to re-code it cuz I contained the parser in a class object http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif But dont worry, the editor will come with filled up-to-date config files for some different ports. Im always open to receive new ones http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

Will we be able ot load Multiple resource wads?
Not really, it loads resources from the configured IWAD plus those from the file you opened for editing a map from. I might add option to load from more WAD files.

Will you be leaving the option open to later design a Lump editor that will work flawlessly and seamlessly with the Map editor?
Thats a very small chance.

If Deepsea didnt have Lump editing Functions built right in I wouldnt have ever even tried it.
Ok, then you might not like mine http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif It only uses resources for faster selecting from a list.

Mr. Rocket
You know I keep my project secret to you as long as possible :P Hehe. Nah, I just dont tell about it until I have secured my needs, like a domainname or so http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif
Â*

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Doom_Dude

May 6th, 2003, 04:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Why not stick the default light levels in a Config file, then we can change them if we like, or add to them?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a good idea and I like that too. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Yup, none of that stuff is hardcoded, you can all fuk with it.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool!

When can we beta test it.? http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif

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http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
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Mr. Chris

May 6th, 2003, 04:19 PM

How about Motifs, similar to what DCK had?

MR_ROCKET

May 6th, 2003, 04:28 PM

will the editor have a undo , redo , duplicate , mirror , rotate for sectors ,stuff like that?
also can it be configured to launch a port like legacy or zdoom etc ?
heh or maybe even plug into dc..?

man this rocks gherkin..

i dont know how you can stand to chug those big ass brains around like that but at least now you have enough peeps that can wheel them around for ya.. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

and no , im not kissing ass ! ,your still my bitch hehe.

Aliotroph?

May 6th, 2003, 06:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Why not stick the default light levels in a Config file, then we can change them if we like, or add to them?
Good idea, ill do that.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those default light levels are really the only ones DooM has. You can set it between 0 and 255 but there are really only 16 levels since it used some kind of palette shift thing or something like a colourmap. I suppose ports could add more but they don't in a general way because people's wads would start looking different.

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Ninja

May 6th, 2003, 06:05 PM

dunno if someone asked for this yet, but could you make your level editor run zennode on save?

TheDruid

May 6th, 2003, 06:11 PM

Nice Gherkin! I dont know if anyone asked this, but will the editor bealbe to run on custom config files, such as a legacy, or skulltag? And will you be able to insert script prefabs?(for CTF skulltag http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Also can you make the editor beable to load resource wads? And not just one, maybe like 10. Or more http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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-----DarkDruid-------
Doom Legacy Team

Aliotroph?

May 6th, 2003, 06:17 PM

Seems like this is going to be WinDEU but with more flexibility and probably 100 times the stability. It would be nice to have stuff like intelligent line drawing though since that's half the reason I like DeePsea so much. At least, there should be something so you can have it split a line when you make one that crosses another.

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Doom_Dude

May 6th, 2003, 08:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>dunno if someone asked for this yet, but could you make your level editor run zennode on save?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

He said he had it set up with ZenNode. I'm sure Gherkin will have it so you can use whatever nodes-jobby you want. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
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Rellik_jmd

May 6th, 2003, 09:34 PM

Teh editer shoold have a SLIGE buttun cuz slige maps r0x0r!!!! W00t!!!

Lookin bitchin man, please tell me you'll be able to draw sectors WADED style. Map making is so much faster when you can just draw the finished product and move on to the next one.

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DOOM Legacy Website Guy (http://legacy.newdoom.com/)
Webmaster The Legacy Editing Resource (http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/).
Webmaster Discharge! DeathMatch Level Reviews (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/server/).

[ud]deathz0r

May 6th, 2003, 11:46 PM

That seems to be turning out to be a really excellent editor, Gherk. Keep it up. =]

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Who am I? Ahh, just a nobody (http://deathz0r.slipgate.org/).

formally deathz0r (http://forums.newdoom.com/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getbio&UserName=deathz0r), which was formally deathwarrior (http://forums.newdoom.com/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getbio&UserName=deathwarrior)

MR_ROCKET

May 7th, 2003, 07:55 AM

hell yea , i'll be posting here everyday just waiting for release http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

send $$ to me and i'll send it to gherkin http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

deepteam

May 7th, 2003, 10:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade> Deepsea was lacking is a sector&line tagging mode that allows you to Click a line, then a Sector and tag them to each other. It would save countless hours with complex lighting and tagging tricks, and would save many a mapper from many an unnesecary sore finger, wrist, and arm.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>DeePsea has automaticac tagging - press Ctrl+T, click and click. Both the linedef selected and then the sector selected now have the same tag.

However, it's pretty easy to remember tags - just look at the dialog since it remembers what you just did http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Click the "Keyboard Help" toolbar button or just look in the help to see all the keyboard shortcuts. As an aside to some other comment above - Remapping this many keyboard commands is so daunting, that in practice it would never work:-)

On the editor: not a bad start - it will be interesting to see how this holds up to objective criticsm. As a note of historical interest, when DeeP displayed textures on the bottom in 1995, it was dismissed as not useful. "We all know the names by heart - totally useless", all the experienced mappers flamed. DCK then also copied that concept and occupied the whole bottom of the screen (like now) and the rest is history.

PS: Hexen support is omitted, which has a dramatic impact on the dialogs and the code.

Mr. Chris

May 7th, 2003, 10:40 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing this in Doom Builder either, automatic sector tagging.

Red_Dragon

May 7th, 2003, 12:44 PM

Yo
i and some ppl are making a mod (a big mod)
its realy big to bind it to gether theres one wad for each episode 32 maps for each episode so i wonder Gherkin can we be the first to make a mod with DooM Builder?
if not can we beta test it atleast?

Agent Spork

May 7th, 2003, 01:12 PM

scheherazade wanted me to post this for him:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>gherkin < suggestions :

3d float-through ability with the ability to select vertices/linedef's/sectors and slide/elevate them in the 3d view (ground_plane/ground_normal)

mini sprites of the items that are placed on the map.

allow linedef groups, including upper/lower unique ability. and tagging groups with attributes like 'alligned x, y ,etc'.
(this would allow auto-alligned textures)
(also allow ading to a group by just kliking a wall face in the 3d view)

these are just things i remembered would have been useful from back in the day.

sorry if i repeated some suggestions, i read through pretty fast.

-scheherazade
<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

iori

May 7th, 2003, 01:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>why they didn't make the last 256 is kinda weird<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

they did, as you can have a light level from 0.
0-255 is 256 numbers

Props022

May 7th, 2003, 02:19 PM

Most Excellent!!! I like how it's turning out.

BUT all I ask, is to have the ability to insert a vertex where ever your mouse pointer is (whether over a linedef [this will split the linedef in two], or over nothing[in this case, the vertex will remain in the middle of nowhere until the map is saved, which then is removed from the wad].

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ToXiCFLUFF

May 7th, 2003, 02:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Deep said: Click the "Keyboard Help" toolbar button or just look in the help to see all the keyboard shortcuts. As an aside to some other comment above - Remapping this many keyboard commands is so daunting, that in practice it would never work:-)<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh but it would - I'm sure Gherkin would have a default set up so it wouldn't be at all necessary to rebind them, so something like this would just be extra and optional flexibility which is always a good thing.

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MR_ROCKET

May 7th, 2003, 04:05 PM

im not gonna make any more suggestions until i see what its like , im sure i'll like it..
i just hope it works like wad author and deepsea both or maybe have a choice of one or the other..
donno it will probbly just work like the doom bulder heh.

Doom_Dude

May 7th, 2003, 04:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>they did, as you can have a light level from 0. 0-255 is 256 numbers<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmmm so it is. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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MR_ROCKET

May 7th, 2003, 06:31 PM

edit : got tierd of looking at the damn numbers..

...

you wouldnt think about it while editing but 0-255 ,thats a hell of alot of shades of light.. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

damn its to much working trying to be a smart ass , i quit !

deepteam

May 7th, 2003, 07:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Oh but it would (keyboard remapping) - I'm sure Gherkin would have a default set up so it wouldn't be at all necessary to rebind them, so something like this would just be extra and optional flexibility which is always a good thing.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>When there are that many key commands, it becomes literally so unwieldy (and the user has to remember all the changes -or- keep looking at the long list of about 175 key commands) that the user has to sit down and map ALL the key combos to make sure there are no conflicts. The reality is that no one does this (one out of 10,000 maybe) and even then the chances of not making a mistake is close to -0-. Hence it's a waste of time.

Not all user ideas are useful just because they sound good. Experience counts for a lot - meaning I wasted my time once before and I'm not going to do it again anyway http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

ToXiCFLUFF

May 8th, 2003, 03:20 AM

Well, I still completely disagree - I would just set it up to the same key config that I was used to in a previous editor. And anyway, I doubt the ALT+[x] shortcuts for the menu bar and CTRL+C/V for copy/paste would change, so there wouldn't be as many commands as you infer. Just things like zoom in/out, split linedef (although Gherkin said you can just do this automatically by placing a vertex on the linedef), bring up selection's properties - simple things like that.

But anyway, I don't see how it could ever be a bad thing if it is entirely optional. How's it going to affect things so badly if you never even have to use it? And from the sound of things, Gherkin is going to have this kind of stuff in a config file anyway so it's not like it's going to be intrusive or anything.

Anyway, I'm leaving this here so as to not clog up the thread because from all the evidence I have seen elsewhere I know you ain't gonna change your mind, and I sure as hell know that I'm not.

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Palladium

May 8th, 2003, 04:43 AM

Perhaps the best way this could be settled about the key binding is to allow it to be done, but not nesecitate it.

When Doom Builder is First run it asks you a few questions:
Where are your Doom, Doom2, Heretic, Hexen Etc Iwads?
[browse] [search] [search in path]
(I really hate when an Iwad search takes 30 minutes when If I were to tell it to only look in C:\Doom\ it would find all of the Iwads in like 6 seconds!)
what editing mode yould you prefer?
( )deepsea
( )wad author
( )D(i)CK
( ) any other editors
( )Custom Setup Files [browse for Filename]
( ) I dont know, Quit Bugging me(a Unique Doom Builder default setup)
the Editing mode could handle all of the Key binding, Colors, Icons vs. Sprites, and all that whatwhat.
The same could be used on first run to select the node builder and editing mode and whatnot.

Will it, when a 3D floor is in a sector, be able to tell you the height of the 3D floor? will you be able to select the sector with the 3D floor and say "I want this middle 3D floor to be higher" and have it move the controll sector accordingly?

------------------
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Gherkin

May 8th, 2003, 08:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Will it, when a 3D floor is in a sector, be able to tell you the height of the 3D floor? will you be able to select the sector with the 3D floor and say "I want this middle 3D floor to be higher" and have it move the controll sector accordingly?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

[answer (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/temp/answer.jpg)]

Im going to keep everything must be hardcoded as general as possible. All support for custom games/engines goes in configuration files. And that cannot be done with features like automatic 3D Floor management.

Toxicfluff: It definitely does matter in development time. When do you want to have it, tomorrow or next year? :P
Key bindings are kinda hard because you never know when the user will press it, so you have to code an escape solution for every fucking possible situation. For now, keys are the way I like them. But maybe ill put a little customization to it later http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif
Â*

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deepteam

May 8th, 2003, 09:10 AM

It's not a question of me changing my mind, it's a question of you understanding my explanation (not that you can bring up any examples - that was sort of a lame thing to say).

As far as me actually changing my mind, it's quite the opposite, otherwise why would there be so many options in DeePsea. I certainly have no need for a lot of them http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif Right now I'm doing an automatic texture cleanup routine because a few wanted that and it doesn't interfere with anything else and it's fun to do.

The isue is simple: even if you don't map all 175 commands, you still have to check that you didn't conflict with an existing command. That's the problem. Look at how huge the mapping list would be (that's ignoring the technical issues). This isn't the same as a game with only a few commands that need remapping.

Oh, and a lot of the keyboard command work in combination with the mouse, so that throws another complication into all of this.

Even now, most users don't even know most of the keyboard shortcuts - because it takes time to read the docs (I'm guilty of the same thing). Naturally they also won't take the time to read the remapping docs and any special notes - and there will be some.

Even now, with the F5 options, many users think DeePsea is so complicated, yet all the screen consists of are various options. None of which have to be changed.

Btw, it helps to have coding and user experience with this sort of topic. That's why I'm explaining the issues. It's nothing to do with my own preferences - just don't like to waste my time again http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

MR_ROCKET

May 8th, 2003, 09:10 AM

hot keys are cool but i would rather have right click menus in the grid area..
does doom builder have such a feature gherkin ?

or will it be noobie settings when you select a sector or line def , there will be a check box of 100 different things you could do woth the highlighted ?

n/m , looking at the screen shots again heh..

let me know when this sucker goes beta man..

Gherkin

May 8th, 2003, 10:15 AM

The mouse works:
Left click = Select/Deselect
Left drag = Drag rectangle to make selection
Right click = Edit selection
Right drag = Drag selection

I believe WA and Deepsea have something simular, it the fastest with building I think.
Â*

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Exl

May 8th, 2003, 10:40 AM

Oh great, I go away for just *2* days and this happens http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

The thing is looking mighty fine there Gherkin! And if it is "WinDEU done good", well, then words cannot express. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif I'll be long happy when it works, so no feature requests (as far as Gherkin is accepting them, heheh) from me...

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Life is but for a short moment, death is forever. Live your life while you still can...

Rellik_jmd

May 8th, 2003, 02:12 PM

How many keyboard hotkeys does an editor need? Not very damn many. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif Remember an extremely important point, simpler equals faster. Don't log the util so full of stuff that it takes 12 key press combos and 24 mouse clicks just to get one texture changed and upper pegged. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Oh adn you aren't making this another right-click to bring up properties are you? That slows editing down sooooo much. After you create an object all there is left to do is mess with properties and having to bring up dialog windows 27 thousand times is a HUGE pain in the ass. The basic stuff for lines, sectors and things should be onscreen at all times. If done right it takes up very little space and greatly increases the speed at which a mapper can crank out maps.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Deep said:
Experience counts for a lot<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember that goes both ways. Coders may have lots of experience coding, but remember this is a utility for mappers. If enough of us say it IS the right thing to do than it is. Mapping keyboard shortcut keys shouldn't be that epic a job because if doen right the editor would have only 10, 20 at the extreme maximum. I'm told I make some very nice maps and all WADED has are 4 shortcut keys that I use.

What shortcut keys do you have mapped out currently Gherkin?

------------------
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Gherkin

May 8th, 2003, 02:54 PM

Rellik go take a look at that screenie which shows the properties of a linedef... There is no way i can put that in a bottom bar! And I dont really see how a single right-click can slow you down. But maybe I can make an option that makes first the sector dialong and then the linedef dialog come up right after inserting/drawing a new sector.

I agree with deep guy, when implending new features, always think twice, because not everything that people want is usefull or the right way to do it. (I know that from Doom Connector, been there done that, heh)

Current mapped keys are:
V or F5 = Vertices mode
L or F6 = Lines mode
S or F7 = Sectors mode
T or F8 = Things mode
C = Clear selection
CTRL+N = New map from scratch
CTRL+O = Open map from file
CTRL+F4 = Close map
CTRL+S = Save to current file (doesnt overwrite, replaces map only)
F12 = Saves map to different file (overwrites!)
CTRL+F12 = Saves map INTO different file (doesnt overwrite, replaces map only)

Planned are:
INSERT = Insert vertex/thing or draw sector (probably gonna be configurable)
DELETE = Delete selection or highlight
ENTER = Probably gonna be same as right-click

More to come.

I tested the editor on a Pentium 500 MHz with 64 MB RAM and I think ill use that as recommanded system specs. No lag in the editing, but a little slow texture pre-caching. Turning pre-caching off helps, but slow down first-time displaying of the texture browser a little (duh). Ofcourse the editor will run on slower systems too, but probably with decrease in performance.

Right now im up to coding Undo/Redo features. Im wonder what the best way is to do this. Deep, can you tell me how you did it or is that classified (heh)? I was thinking of just making a copy of the entire map, but that might take up a lot of memory with large maps :\
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Rellik_jmd

May 8th, 2003, 03:55 PM

Here's some stuff I've done that you may have seen before:

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/pics/linedef2.gif

After not too long a time mappers don't need to see the texture every time they select it, and with this setup it very quick and easy to get your lines the way you want 'em. We don't need to know whether or not a line has been selected or the heights of the sectors on either side, or what the combined flags are, not when that GUI real-estate could be used for something more important.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/pics/sector.gif

There isn't a whole lot to edit with sectors so all the usual stuff could easily be on-screen. Having the bar just tell us what the stats are is pointless when you could use the same amount of space for the entire properties menu as well. Being able to see the info isn't nearly as important as being able to change it.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/pics/things.gif

And again with things there isn't that much to edit so putting it in a seperate pop-up box is hugely wasteful. In my pic the number in black is the number of the thing on the map, and the white is the thing ID number.

You shouldn't need to use the insert key to create new objects. It would be better if you cold use a mouse button to drop things. Right click creates new thing, vertex and the left button selects / moves it around. Very efficient. Having to hit the Insert key every time you add something is hugely inefficient. Remember that a mapper is gonna have to do that perhaps HUNDREDS of times for a SINGLE map, so if there's an easier faster way then it'd be crazy not to use it. You could also make it so a Right click on an existing object removes that object, since how often do you want object piled on top of each other?

You say that you "dont really see how a single right-click can slow you down." but thats the whole point, it's not a single click. It a THOUSAND clicks for EVERY map we make and THAT is what slows us down. If you can put the bulk of the dialogs right on screen in a clean interface then the mapper will rarely need to access the advanced properties and when he does, that is the kind of stuff you toggle to a hotkey / onscreen button.

It seems some people get insulted when mappers tell them how to code their editors, but they don't understand that the way they set up their editors tells US how to MAP. The most important thing is SPEED! SPEED SPEED SPEED! Too many utils just slow you down, efficiency is the key to a productive mapper. Minimal keystrokes, minimal frivoulous features that have to be accessed when they aren't required just makes sense.

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Gherkin

May 8th, 2003, 04:25 PM

1) You have a point.
2) The above examples of an edit bar are HUGE. Twice the size of my current bar at the bottom of the screen. I'd like to keep my editor usable at 800x600 maximized.
3) In the examples above you forgot some stuff. I dont see the option for the linedefs to set/remove its sidedefs (which you should be able to for both sides, since its technically allowed). I only see a few Thing flags and Linedef flags, while there are 16 possible flags for each!
4) No you dont HAVE to see the texture, yes its more USER-FRIENDLY to show it.

Now if you can solve my points 2, 3 and 4 please http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

EDIT:
Have been trying some changes; I could put all flags (not all 16 will be used by the config, but it must be possible!) in a listbox with checkboxes in it... This will however only show the first 6, for the others you'll have to scroll the list. This may solve point 2 and 3, but I dont really love the listbox with checkboxes because they are not able to be grayed (indicating the flag is only set on some objects)

To solve point 4, I might do it so that when NO selection is made, it shows info about the highlighted object like it does now. When a selection is made, it turns into a different (editable) panel where you can edit all properties.
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Doom_Dude

May 8th, 2003, 06:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I'd like to keep my editor usable at 800x600 maximized.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah not all of us are using big monitors.

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ToXiCFLUFF

May 8th, 2003, 08:54 PM

Well, I think being able to see the texture is quite important, especially with custom texture packs etc,

As for the single right click to bring up the properties menu, I can't really see a better way. In most editors you have to press alt+enter or right click to bring up a menu and then click to enter properties, so a single right click is faster than most.

What about having a double-click with the mouse to insert an item? That way the mapper doesn't have to reach away from the mouse to insert new stuff.

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Aliotroph?

May 9th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Well, I don't hae time now to give all this a lot of thought but I have two things to say:

1. Conflicts in mapping keystrokes shouldn't really be a problem. It's easy to make the editor tell you when you've goofed one.

2. Rellik, if you wanna make GUI designs like that you should use a VB editor or something to lay them out. Much faster methinks. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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MR_ROCKET

May 9th, 2003, 02:48 AM

yea for me , right clicking and moving to properties would be quickest..
but if its an option , wad author or deep sea style , make it so heh

also when right clicking in wad author , i goto "edit raw data" then add in my line type in the data field.
how will you go about adding line types in for control sectors in the doom builder?

http://www.doombuilder.com/builder/preview/db2.gif
-- i removed linked image to reduce bw..
would i right click on the line def there and change it from normal to what ever intger data type ?

also i was wondering about modifs and checking. will the editor apply its default texture if nothing has been applied?

Jow

May 9th, 2003, 04:00 AM

Can you make it find the texture from the list if you write a part of the texture name?

Palladium

May 9th, 2003, 08:53 AM

how about a [Show >>]/[Hide <<] Button that will toggle the Texture display on and off on all the Texture name places, and have it persist between instances, that way we can, if we like turn them off for speed mapping, or turn them on for Quality Mapping

------------------
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deepteam

May 9th, 2003, 10:22 AM

LONG POST http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>After not too long a time mappers don't need to see the texture every time they select it<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL, that's exactly the same thing they said 8 years ago and they were wrong. It's just not true.. period. Almost everyone loves seeing the textures onscreen - especially (as noted) for custom graphics.

As far as mapping goes - I've done a lot more than the typical coder (see website for a few I've released). That's why I wrote DeeP in the first place - my absolute disagreement with DEU "dots" and not seeing quick graphical feedback on the screen being my first issue. But I did like some concepts compared with others for exactly the same reasons you list - basically DEU has an extremely fast interface. What helps is the combination of keys or mouse clicks that can do the same thing (like exiting the dialogs).

Your dialogs are just not very friendly - a bit dated, awkward (I hate to double scroll) - and miss a LOT of other things that are required to cover all the bases. As pointed out, screen space is precious and that's why dialogs are terrific and why as Palladium noted, I toggle the display of such data to give maximum screen space.

Dialogs pop up instantly and like DEU, they easily exit (you don't have to click any button). I don't care much about machine less than a PII400. There are also technical/user issues you are not aware off that come up if you leave everything floating as toolbars. Constant floating toolbars have a problem in that they always seem to be where I don't want them. Not too bad for graphics editing, but totally annoying in level editing. Not to mention that toolbars that are useful would take up way too much space and only some could be used at specific stages. It's not nearly as easy as you think.

The extra feedback I give is because there was room left over. It's actually very important to see the sector heights of the 2 sidedefs at the same time. There are very few who can remember the details of 10,000 sidedefs http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>How many keyboard hotkeys does an editor need? Not very damn many. Remember an extremely important point, simpler equals faster. Don't log the util so full of stuff that it takes 12 key press combos and 24 mouse clicks just to get one texture changed and upper pegged.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>That's an incorrect statement and not logical. Simple does NOT equal faster at all, indeed quite the opposite, otherwise the simplest form of editing would prevail - a hex editor http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

First, you do need quite a few keys for those good keyboarders. Common commands take 1 keypress and then they move up in complexity. Some are so universal that it's not a big deal ctrl+x/c/v/y, cursor keys and so on. Some have to be compromised for the sake of phonetic convenience. For example, shift+S to split a line since S is sector mode and making it some cocky letter like R makes no sense, even if it did work (DCK had a lot of that). It's also possible to just plop a vertex on a line and that splits it too. I don't agree with having 2 keycombos for the same thing - keys are precious resources. Only time I've done that is for backwards compatibility or when it's a natural thing for another tool to perform the function.

The second point is that you don't HAVE to use the shortcut keys. Having MORE options does not make something more complicated at all. Just don't use them. It's a common fallacy. For example, I can use MSWORD just like NOTEPAD but when I have a special formatting issue, I can do that too (but NOTEPAD can't).

Speed is really getting the knack of using a program/editor and that relates to your own skills at using a keyboard and mouse and willingness to learn new ideas. No matter what, you have do so SOMETHING and that something has to be done a zillion times. Even moving the mouse around the screen is quite time consuming and tiring and annoying. That's the beauty of dialogs - I focus the mouse instantly in the dialog and you don't have to spend all that time getting there. Ditto for zooming/centering (more useful commands).

So you see, aside from your own preference, it makes little difference in total time and arguably what you propose takes even longer (WADED is certainly not faster). DEU had some good basic ideas (which is what Gherkin is using too) and is accepted by way more users than what is proposed which is more a WADED derivative. WADED is not very good mainly because it was limited to just DOOM.

Once you get into HEXEN editing and extended BOOM/ZDOOM flags and types (all neglected in your sample), the points I've made become apparent. It's a one-shot pony that uses up valuable screen space (meaning you have to spend much more time scrolling and zooming) to get to various parts of a level. And as you say, speed is indeed an important issue.

deepteam

May 9th, 2003, 10:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Right now im up to coding Undo/Redo features. Im wonder what the best way is to do this. Deep, can you tell me how you did it or is that classified (heh)? I was thinking of just making a copy of the entire map, but that might take up a lot of memory with large maps <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>That issue bothered me at first, but fragmenting memory with parts and pieces is even worse. So yup, that's what I did. It's actually not that much on today's systems, since all it copies is the map structure stuff - relatively tiny.

Red_Dragon

May 9th, 2003, 11:55 AM

http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm31.gif

sniff sniff noone answered us in [DooM] DrFo and our boss (who wrote it) MsL .Inc
ÃŽÃ£Ã§Ã¸Ã¥Ã³Ãª we only wanted to beta test we asked if we and our 4 episoded mode with 32 maps each episode could use DooM Builder Beta please answer us this time ask me and il qoute it... http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm3.gif

Rellik_jmd

May 9th, 2003, 01:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>2) The above examples of an edit bar are HUGE. Twice the size of my current bar at the bottom of the screen. I'd like to keep my editor usable at 800x600 maximized.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well you don't need to use that font size, that was a just something I threw together to show another possibility. Remember WADED runs at 640x480 and it has plenty of room for everything that 95% of mappers need.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>3) In the examples above you forgot some stuff. I dont see the option for the linedefs to set/remove its sidedefs (which you should be able to for both sides, since its technically allowed). I only see a few Thing flags and Linedef flags, while there are 16 possible flags for each!<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
But do all those flags need to be on screen? No, just the most oftenly used ones. There's no point in displaying something that only gets used once or twice every other map. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>4) No you dont HAVE to see the texture, yes its more USER-FRIENDLY to show it.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, I'm just saying that it's not absolutely neccesary and an option.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>2. Rellik, if you wanna make GUI designs like that you should use a VB editor or something to lay them out. Much faster methinks.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Meh, those didn't take very long to whip up, and I made them quite some time ago.

DEEP:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>LOL, that's exactly the same thing they said 8 years ago and they were wrong. It's just not true.. period.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really? So what your saying is that every mapper needs to be able to see the texture everytime they want to use it? That's odd, it very rare that I actually need to look at a texture to know what it is. Hmmm. Interesting. So mappers told you that they didn't need to see the textures on screen, then you told them they were wrong. You told the mappers they were wrong and that mappers need to see the textures. Interesting. Anyway, moving on...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>As far as mapping goes - I've done a lot more than the typical coder (see website for a few I've released).<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm, I found three and one was just a demo wad for textures. Do you have a bunch hidden away on your HD maybe? Otherwise, no offense Deep but 2 maps is not alot in any way shape or form.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Your dialogs are just not very friendly - a bit dated, awkward (I hate to double scroll)<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
So it's bad because its old? Double scroll? So it's bad to scroll in an on-screen menu but not in a pop-up menu? And again with the "I hate". Wouldn't it be a good idea to see what the people wanted? You aren't the one doing the mapping, the users are. So it's impolite for me to tell you how I'd like to see an editor, but it's okay for you to say "I don't like something so no one is going to get it". I'm not saying that I know that mappers would preffer it my way but as someone who is (atleast I like to think) a pretty damn good and experienced mapper doesn't my opinion carry some weight? I am a mapper, now I could be wrong but aren't people like me the ones who use the editors?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>and miss a LOT of other things that are required to cover all the bases.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's the problem, you don't NEED to cover all the bases. This may come as a shockign surprise but you don't have to choose one over the other. You can actually have BOTH. Dialogs are terrific, unless they're used excessively. Everytime someone has to open a dialog window to change something that could easily be changed in an onscreen window that's a wasted click. Over the course of a single level, that's thousands of wasted clicks, wasted time, and jsut another one of those little things that adds up to be a pain in the ass. What is gained by making the mapper go into a dialog box for everything? Is there some magical reason why it has to be that way and that onscreen stuff is simply not an option?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Constant floating toolbars have a problem in that they always seem to be where I don't want them.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, floating where YOU don't want them. Did you even consider that it might be better for the mapper than for you? How are they in the way? The editor Gherkin is working on already has a bottom bar running across the screen, all I'm proposing is that it be used effectively. I'm lookin at his screenies and call me crazy but they don't look in the way AT ALL.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Not too bad for graphics editing, but totally annoying in level editing.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uhm, he's already got the bars in there and they look fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Not to mention that toolbars that are useful would take up way too much space and only some could be used at specific stages. It's not nearly as easy as you think.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Urgh, okay one more time. A mapper DOES NOT need every option available every moment they are mapping. The vast majority of mapping uses only a small number of options and the few left over could be put in dialog boxes. What's the point of hiding something in a dialog if you need it all the time, and whats the point of putting something on screen if you only need it very rarely? The key is a compromise between the two, it's not an either/or situation. As for it's not as easy as I think, that's just your opinion and I think it's a lot easier than you think it is. You jsut need to be willing to see things from a mappers perspective.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>It's actually very important to see the sector heights of the 2 sidedefs at the same time.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm trying to think of why a person would need that info but I'm coming up with nothing. Why do you need to know the height of the sectors on either side of a line? Your sectors should already be where they need to be and the editor should warn them if they'd missed a texture. You don't set your lines up before you set up your sectors. You'd just end up having to go back into lines again to set them up a 2nd time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>ME: How many keyboard hotkeys does an editor need? Not very damn many. Remember an extremely important point, simpler equals faster. <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>DEEP: That's an incorrect statement and not logical. Simple does NOT equal faster at all, indeed quite the opposite, otherwise the simplest form of editing would prevail - a hex editor<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you're saying that it's better to have to click 14 times, got through 12 menus, 5 scollers and a check box to change a texture than simplifying it to 3 clicks and a scroll? Simpler DOES equal faster. If there is less buttons for me to push, less menu's for me to go through, OBVIOUSLY it means I'm going to be mapping faster doesn't it? You haven't actually done a lot of mapping have you Deep? What's the point in making a mapper hit shift-s to split a line, then manually move the vert to where he needs it when they could just go into vertex mode and drop the vert exactly where he wants it? you're TRIPLING the amount of work a person needs to do to make a single vertex. Why? Why not SIMPLIFY things and just get rid of the keyboard command for it? This may work for you but Gherkin is making a new editor here and there's no sense in coding 12 ways to do something when there's one very fast and easy way.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Speed is really getting the knack of using a program/editor and that relates to your own skills at using a keyboard and mouse and willingness to learn new ideas.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
A good coder can make a program intuitive enough that they don't need to spend 15 weeks learning how to use it. Doom mapping isn't rocket science, so why make a program that you'd have to be from NASA to know how to use? Thats just wasteful and backwards. I have made what some people call ground breaking stuff with an editor that is what, 7 years old? You don't NEED something that's crammed full of stuff, I've PROVEN that haven't I? You know more about coding, that's a given, but have you ever thought that I might know more about mapping?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>WADED is not very good mainly because it was limited to just DOOM.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it's not limited to just DOOM. You can edit Heretic too, but that's beside the point. What will Gherkins editor be used for more, editing DOOM or editing HEXEN? Which should get more consideration in the design?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Once you get into HEXEN editing and extended BOOM/ZDOOM flags and types (all neglected in your sample), the points I've made become apparent.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually no they don't. The majority of mapping doesn't involve BOOM/ZDOOM types and that stuff can be put into dialogs because it's simply not accessed as much as regular stuff. Sure linetypes have to go in a dialog, but there's no way around that in ANY situation so that's arguement falls flat. As for thing / line flags, again those flags aren't used in 95% of editing so putting them onscreen would be a waste of space and should therfore be in a dialog. The vast VAST majority of any kind of editing, regardless of port or game, is very simplistic and doesn't require a million variables to be instantly available. There are a few options that are constantly needed and SHOULD be constantly available.

If you've made more than I'm wrong, but otherwise for a guy who's made 3 maps you seem to think you're some kind of mapping authority.

(Heh, now that's a long post.) http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

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Webmaster The Legacy Editing Resource (http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/).
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Mr. Chris

May 9th, 2003, 01:24 PM

This is from Job on the doomworld forums, I fowarded his idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>
Job wrote on 05-07-03 20:57:
Gherkin,

I read your post about your new editor you're working on and I see a lot of promise in it. I have a suggestion for you, however -- use it if you feel it would be worth your while. What if, under the textures selection/menu, you had a sub-menu that allowed you to select various themes. And under each theme is the appropriate textures so that the user doesn't have to search for the right one if they, say want to do a gothic motifed wad or space station, etc? If you feel this is a good idea, let me know.

-- Job
<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gherkin

May 9th, 2003, 02:06 PM

Mr. Chris:
Thanks http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif But I read on doomworld forums too and Job already suggested me that on IRC. I just dont post a lot, because there is suddenly a flood of requests, comments and ideas after my first post about the editor (which I actually didnt expect). So I just read the main things ATM and ill dig up these topics when im ready to implend something new.

Rellik & Deep:
I take it from here Deep has just other preferences than Rellik. Ill have think about it and find something for this that statisfies both worlds.

Red_Dragon:
The editor is FAR from finished, there is NO point in using it within the next 2 months, sorry.
Â*

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Pate

May 9th, 2003, 02:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>
here is suddenly a flood of requests, comments and ideas after my first post about the editor<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

This seems a bit strange to me. When I posted about my editor, I got hardly any replies at all. Csabo seemed to say something similar in dw forums. Yet you get tons of mail. Doom mappers work in mysterious ways. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm6.gif

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Tired of crappy Doom editors? So was I, that's why I'm coding my own (http://www.hut.fi/~jpakkane/why/).

MR_ROCKET

May 9th, 2003, 05:02 PM

hey everybody loves new tools gherkin heh , you shoulda expected that http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

pate if Why had a chat client built in , it woulda been different for ya heh.

Dani J666

May 9th, 2003, 05:04 PM

Although I've not had much experience with wad editors I think I have an idea that would be usefull:

Map possition markers. What these would do is, say your making a zdoom/legacy map where you use a lot of control sectors for 3d floors and stuff. What would be usefull would be an option to create a marker where all your control sectors are then press one key to move to that position on the map instantly. Then press the key again to go back to where you were editing.

Don't know if this is practical, I just thought it would be a usefull feature in all kinds of mapping situations.

Or perhaps a mini map that you bring up to instantly navigate to another area of the map.

Another thing I thought of is I know Gerkin doesn't want to add premade objects but how about a feature to allow the user create them? Ie once you've created a door/teleport or complicated effect once, just highlight the sectors and create a 'brush' from them. Obviously they would have to automatically get new tags when they were inserted. I think I've seen this in another editor and thought it was a REAL time saving feature.

Disregard this if you don't think it's usefull. After all I spent most of my mapping days with Build. (The 3D walkthrough editor was fantastic)

MR_ROCKET

May 9th, 2003, 05:09 PM

doom editing prefebs ? now that would be different , but it would be more like a copy an paste jobby..

Dani J666

May 9th, 2003, 05:11 PM

Think of them like little miny wads with the option to drop whatever is in them into the new level and have the tags automatically reasign themselves.

Palladium

May 9th, 2003, 05:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Not to mention that toolbars that are useful would take up way too much space and only some could be used at specific stages. It's not nearly as easy as you think.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rellik, your a Genious! If you break the etidor into two or more modes, you can have only the relevant info on a toolbar at any time, like early design would shiw sector heights and tagz and shit, while Finishing would show the allignment and texture info and such?

About any number of other things:

- I dont really like to type in texture names. I find it annoying to have to drop the mouse to move over to the keyboard to do something that would take all of .5 seconds longer with my mouse. (Wheel Wheel Wheel Click)

- I Like Free floating Toolbars, especially when I can move them to my second or third monitor while I edit on my first.

- I never use the Toolbars in Deep to change things, but I do use them to check them quickly. Its really annoying when you select a line by mousing over it, move th set the bits on it, and find that your about to modify a linedef half way around the map!

- I also dont like the idea of having to click on a linedef to get it to display in the toolbar because that would slow down the whole finishing process. (Scan for the line you need to change, Right click it, Make the single change being made in this pass, click the form next to where the change was made, Move the mouse pointer back to where I wanted it before Deepteam so Graciously moved it for me, repeat)

- Deep, Could you add a feature to Deepsea where you can make a linedef keep selection by Clicking it once, but not be actually selected like it usually is so that next time you click a linedef itll change that line to the editing line, but if you move the mouse over any other lines their info will be displayed, but if you move the line over the toolbox itllgo back to the selected line? Call it Hyperedit mode or Something and have a Button to toggle it on and off

- Speaking of Which, I find the auto-mouse positioning doubles , and sometimes tripples the distance I need to move the mouse. when I am say editing the fragglescript, I close Notepad, and the Fragglescript thingie saves map one, it takes all of 3 seconds some times. I Usually use that time to have my mouse positioned over the Exit button. then when thingz finish saving, I then reposition the Mouse pointer where I want it to be and Click the Exit button that I was all set up to click before Deep so Kindly moved my mouse. I have many similar complaints all over the editor, though at some times it can be helpful, It should use a more intelligent system to see if the user is trying to position the mouse somewhere before Throwing them halfway across the screen, or maybe a more intelligent Interface that will learn a users preference based on actions they perform and how many times a Keyboard-mash occurs rather then them having to set it?

About other programs by Gherking:

- I *Really* hate how DC3 always steals focus whenever someone causes blue text to appear on the screen, or a Popuo Dialog occurs, such as when I get a Ping timeout or someone sends me an IM or phile. Its Just plain annoying when Im editing, or typing an IM, but it can be deadly when Im in a DM and being attacked by 3 Different people, or worse, it could lower my score in a tourney game! If it were in my Power as an end user I would make this not a request, but an all out Order. Fix It!, but alas, as a single end user all I can do is Beg. If you like Ill post it on the DC3 Forums too, or E-mail you with it

- Your Editor wont steal focus like DC3 does, will it?

Okay, thats all I could think of to Post ATM, that fits even halfway into this thread
T'anx, and *THIS* is a Long Post.

Okay, not it isnt as long as I thot :P

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------------------
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When any player becomes consistent with the server, they fail to be inconsistent, which violates the latency laws of the internet and so they must be kicked before bad thingz start to happen

deepteam

May 9th, 2003, 10:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Really? So what your saying is that every mapper needs to be able to see the texture everytime they want to use it?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep. You seem to forget that most advanced mappers use custom textures and they are not root memorized. Not only that, they may have several 100 new ones for every map.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>That's odd, it very rare that I actually need to look at a texture to know what it is.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>I doubt that very much if you are working with new textures. Somehow (since you missed this point already), I doubt you can memorize 200 new textures without a lot of effort. Besides, the textures come up instantly and don't add any delay at all.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Hmmm. Interesting. So mappers told you that they didn't need to see the textures on screen, then you told them they were wrong. You told the mappers they were wrong and that mappers need to see the textures. Interesting. Anyway, moving on...<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL - this is going to backfire on you. If you paid attention, you'd know that this is what MAPPERS argued (because like you they were just obstinate and wanted some reason to flame me), then what happened is they all eventually acknowledged this was a much better thing and ALL the editors COPIED what DeeP did. So what do you think, was I right or was I wrong? (Even John Romero was impressed.) You are so stuck thinking about stock DOOM (and WADED) that it never occurred to you that the rest of the DOOM editing world moved past that a long time ago - about 1996 when DETH and DCK copied DeeP. In fact, that's a defacto must for all editors now, picked up by Gherkin too. Better get with the program.

Btw, some of the biggest and best known editing teams agree with me, because they asked for a lot of the features http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

WADED is one of the least used editors (defacto proof that it's not a good choice). If you ask DeeP/DEU/DETH/ZETH users they'll all tell you that clicking through the menus is way faster than scrolling through lists. It's lightning fast (as I already mentioned).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>A good coder can make a program intuitive enough that they don't need to spend 15 weeks learning how to use it.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>The term "intuitive is bull. Proof? Easy, give a guy who knows nothing about DOOM and ask him to make a level. He'll be stumped. The rest is b.s.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Doom mapping isn't rocket science, so why make a program that you'd have to be from NASA to know how to use? Thats just wasteful and backwards.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Who says it has to be? You keep making invalid statements implying that more options make for complicated use without anything to back you up. Far from the truth as I showed with MSWORD vs NOTEPAD. If you pay attention to this thread, notice that people are asking for MORE choices not fewer, the opposite of what you claim.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I have made what some people call ground breaking stuff with an editor that is what, 7 years old? You don't NEED something that's crammed full of stuff, I've PROVEN that haven't I?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>About as far from the issue as you can get. This is an old stale argument. You can write the best novel in the world using a typewriter, but wouldn't it be more fun and faster to user MSWORD? Get it.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You know more about coding, that's a given, but have you ever thought that I might know more about mapping?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>I doubt it. Read on.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Actually no they don't.. blah blah<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Hopeless. You have no idea if the majority of mapping (for the rest of us) involves BOOM/ZDOOM types since you don't edit ZDOOM/HEXEN. Consistency in dialogs makes for quick learning. Not planning ahead for HEXEN is a big mistake. What you propose is awkward, hard to learn and very inflexible.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>If you've made more than I'm wrong, but otherwise for a guy who's made 3 maps you seem to think you're some kind of mapping authority. <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>You got balls, but that's about it. The levels out there are demo levels to show people how to do things, but they are full fledged large levels (relative to the times they were made).

DeePATAK was at the edge of stock DOOM visiplane limits all the way.

XTHEATERIII is the very first (and large 14,000 linedefs) level illustrating hires ZDOOM textures. Took me about 2 weeks to make including all the textures, scripting etc. Let's see you duplicate that with WADED. Not possible is it? So much for WADED. That's an obvious point you just don't want to concede - it just could be possible that you don't want to learn new avenues of editing that are actualy faster than what you are used to. And that's the key word - what YOU are used to. I try out all new editors (since day 1) and borrow useful concepts. Yours are mostly a WADED style subset far below what's available now. I can't see going backwards.

FYI, I've done about 200 QUAKE levels (used to have some on the website, but pulled them for bandwidth reasons). So yes, I know a lot about level editing and I know for certain that I'm supported on the concepts I've presented. You presumed that it was totally my own preferences (despite clear evidence to the contrary).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>So it's bad because its old? Double scroll? So it's bad to scroll in an on-screen menu but not in a pop-up menu?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it's bad because it's old and dated. Clicking through a popup (NOT scrolling) to select types is way faster than having to scroll TWO lists.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>And again with the "I hate". Wouldn't it be a good idea to see what the people wanted?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>First off, I am entitled to an opinion as much as the next guy (you are not unique there). Secondly, I have way more experience then you on both counts.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You aren't the one doing the mapping, the users are. So it's impolite for me to tell you how I'd like to see an editor<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, but I am the one doing the mapping. And I do listen to users (said that many times). That's why there are all these options. It's impolite to assume something when you haven't taken the time to read what I've written.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>(atleast I like to think) a pretty damn good and experienced mapper doesn't my opinion carry some weight? I am a mapper, now I could be wrong but aren't people like me the ones who use the editors?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>You are but one person with very limited variety in editing. Plus I know for sure that what you say is in the minority. I also know for sure that some of your concepts won't fly in daylight because they are not well thought out because you don't have the experience with the other ports.

There have to be compromises. It's just that yours add too much extra learning baggage for those "occasional" (you think) editing options required.

deepteam

May 9th, 2003, 11:07 PM

Some of these I'm not sure what you were referring to. Maybe you are talking about something else altogether.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I Like Free floating Toolbars, especially when I can move them to my second or third monitor while I edit on my first.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I never use the Toolbars in Deep to change things, but I do use them to check them quickly.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Not clear what you mean. You can float the toolbars anywhere you want. Plus you can customize them and you can make more and switch between them.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Its really annoying when you select a line by mousing over it, move th set the bits on it, and find that your about to modify a linedef half way around the map!<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Again refer to the keyboard docs. Press the SHIFT key when you move and it will keep focused on the original line (assuming you didn't click it). This is an old DEU concept.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I also dont like the idea of having to click on a linedef to get it to display in the toolbar because that would slow down the whole finishing process. <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>If you mean DeePsea, you don't have to click on it. The bottom is not a toolbar though.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Right click it, Make the single change being made in this pass, click the form next to where the change was made, Move the mouse pointer back to where I wanted it before Deepteam so Graciously moved it for me, repeat)<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>You can also press ENTER (vs right click). Mouse pointer goes BACK to where you where before you entered the dialog, which is logically where you are editing. So I have no idea what you mean here. IOW, unlike any other editor (mouse position is sort of random relative to the map in that it's whereever it was in the dialog), the mouse is always put back where it was before you entered the dialog. So what's the issue?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Deep, Could you add a feature to Deepsea where you can make a linedef keep selection by Clicking it once, but not be actually selected like it usually is so that next time you click a linedef itll change that line to the editing line, but if you move the mouse over any other lines their info will be displayed, but if you move the line over the toolbox itllgo back to the selected line? Call it Hyperedit mode or Something and have a Button to toggle it on and off<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Not sure what you mean at the start. Right now if you select a line, it will show other lines info as you move over them. If you go over the bottom tool info, it will automatically switch to the selected line all by itself (you don't have to press the SHIFT key in this case).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Speaking of Which, I find the auto-mouse positioning doubles , and sometimes tripples the distance I need to move the mouse.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Again not clear. Mouse movement can't do that. All it does is restore a mouse to a location prior to dialog entry (not always). Sounds like you have a slow system that is playing mouse catchup and that makes the mouse move (not DeePsea code).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>when I am say editing the fragglescript, I close Notepad, and the Fragglescript thingie saves map one, it takes all of 3 seconds some times.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>For sure a slow system. that's like under a second for me for large levels. Don't move the mouse and your system won't pile up mouse messages.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I Usually use that time to have my mouse positioned over the Exit button. then when thingz finish saving, I then reposition the Mouse pointer where I want it to be and Click the Exit button that I was all set up to click before Deep so Kindly moved my mouse.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't do that - patience is the key. I used to have an option to disable mouse positioning, but I wanted to reduce the number of F5 options.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I have many similar complaints all over the editor, though at some times it can be helpful, It should use a more intelligent system to see if the user is trying to position the mouse somewhere before Throwing them halfway across the screen, or maybe a more intelligent Interface that will learn a users preference based on actions they perform and how many times a Keyboard-mash occurs rather then them having to set it?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>It never throws you across the screen. That's your system doing that to you. It's also not possible to do what you say when a part of a Windows dialog (like saving) has control. All control passes to the dialog.

Btw, you aren't using some aftermarket nonMS mouse and nonMS mouse drivers are you?

Gherkin

May 10th, 2003, 01:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Another thing I thought of is I know Gerkin doesn't want to add premade objects but how about a feature to allow the user create them? Ie once you've created a door/teleport or complicated effect once, just highlight the sectors and create a 'brush' from them. Obviously they would have to automatically get new tags when they were inserted. I think I've seen this in another editor and thought it was a REAL time saving feature.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
CTRL+C
CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V CTRL+V

I wonder how long rellik's next post is gonne be, heh :P
Â*

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MR_ROCKET

May 10th, 2003, 05:46 AM

well you know he planned on writing a book sometime gherkin :P

hey i just became a lost soul lol - makes sence the way this topics been treating me but oh well i just dont have much to say , just waiting on release..
poor mista wocket...

deepteam

May 10th, 2003, 09:01 AM

Yeah, I hate long posts too:

When I woke up this morning I realized that the Palladin post highlighted some issues with "toolbars" that were in the back of my mind, but I got too immersed in personality details http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Namely that if you have a floating toolbar, one has to move back to the toolbar to make changes and that of course loses focus with the object you are over unless you select it (assuming automatic object selection - and who would want to get rid of that?). So you have to have a method to either keep the selected object (like the SHIFT key) or select/deselect objects.

Selecting/deselecting objects is a PIA (as noted by Rellik) when it's done a zillion times. Having to always hit the SHIFT key is also a PIA (zillions of times). The compromise is to default to editing the object highlighted since that's the most common use. That avoids having to do anything else and you just move on to the next object. My argument is the opposite, only for the occasional time is a permanently accessed toolbar useful - mostly the flags - and then you can live with the extra effort required to keep the object in editing focus.

So you see, the dialogs actually save time vs a permanent editing toolbar in that the fewest and simplest actions are required to get the job done.

XWE is a good example of this problem (there's a edit/info box on the bottom) and in a lesser way WA. You select and the next selection deselects (that's also an option in DeePsea - although I just noticed I broke it - well something good came out of this) so that saves some time. But then you have to use the ctrl key to multi-select, vs just successive clicks. It's a balance - I prefer automatic additive selects, but the other way isn't bad either.

One can't design for the dumbest level nor the highest level. Same thing for screen/system resources. One has to choose the minimum system to design for, meaning it won't work on some systems. So anything done is always a compromise and can't make everyone happy. I can also assure everyone that having many options (even though they are optional) confuses the hell out of people. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm3.gif

That's one reason it's best to have ALL editing for an object focused in ONE dialog (per mode), not optional 2nd dialogs that have to be invoked. An example of an awkward choice is WA, where "raw" editing is not obvious and has to be searched for. Having all that combined with the main dialog saves time and confusion. [In fairness, I think he originally did this for screen size issues 640x480].

Rellik_jmd

May 10th, 2003, 11:27 AM

Long post? BOOOYAKKAH! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

Palladium:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade> I dont really like to type in texture names. I find it annoying to have to drop the mouse to move over to the keyboard to do something that would take all of .5 seconds longer with my mouse. (Wheel Wheel Wheel Click)<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was mostly thinking this would be handy for stuff like inputting values for colormaps. Now it would be great if that stuff could get hardcoded with some kind of handy widget but it would almost be wasted work. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I also dont like the idea of having to click on a linedef to get it to display in the toolbar because that would slow down the whole finishing process.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good point, you're right there. Hovering over would be better

DEEP:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I doubt that very much if you are working with new textures. Somehow (since you missed this point already), I doubt you can memorize 200 new textures without a lot of effort.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
ME: I can remember things.
DEEP: I don't believe you, you must be a liar becuase I am never wrong.
http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm13.gif
Actually I can for the most part. When I go through all the work of creating a texture, I don't usually forget what it is. And if I do I only need to look at it once more, not every time I use it. Maybe that's just me though.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>LOL - this is going to backfire on you. blah blah blah....<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know you're stuck on yourself but seriously, is it so inconcievable that there is more than one way to do things? Yes it's nice to be able to see all the textures on screen but you should be able to easily edit those textures without unneccesary actions as well. With WADED (an editor which is so below yours IYO) I can select a texture and change any slot to that texture with a SINGLE CLICK. Your way is easier, the WADED way is faster. You can't dispute that. All I'm asking for is that instead of making an editor exactly like yours or Wadauthor that Gherkin stay open to the possibility of doing something different. If he can find a way to combine the speed of one way with the easy of the other way mappers will be very happy. As much as we like being told by people like you how to edit, it'd be nice to have an option every now and then.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>ME: A good coder can make a program intuitive enough that they don't need to spend 15 weeks learning how to use it.

DEEP: The term "intuitive is bull. Proof? Easy, give a guy who knows nothing about DOOM and ask him to make a level. He'll be stumped. The rest is b.s.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who are the people that most use DOOM editors Deep? Is it people who've never made a doom level before? Or is people like me who've been mapping for more than a few years? A person like me should be able to switch to an editor like yours without too much trouble but what do I hear most from mappers who've switched to you util? "It takes a long time to get used to, but what choice do we have?"

Making DOOM levels is retardedly easy, it's just editors like yours that make it difficult. If you were a mapper you'd see that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You keep making invalid statements implying that more options make for complicated use without anything to back you up. Far from the truth as I showed with MSWORD vs NOTEPAD. If you pay attention to this thread, notice that people are asking for MORE choices not fewer, the opposite of what you claim.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. Adding options INCORRECTLY makes it complicated, that's what I've been saying all along. Perhaps you should start paying attention.
2. I'm not against adding options, I'm just saying that more thought has to be put into it than just "I'm gonna throw everything in a thousand pop-up menus". Why are you so afraid of opposing view points? Worried that people might like a different way better than yours?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You can write the best novel in the world using a typewriter, but wouldn't it be more fun and faster to user MSWORD? Get it.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Der, that's what I'm saying but you've got it backwards. You're saying that we have to use a complicated typerwriter instead of a sleek and fast program.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You have no idea if the majority of mapping (for the rest of us) involves BOOM/ZDOOM types since you don't edit ZDOOM/HEXEN. Consistency in dialogs makes for quick learning. Not planning ahead for HEXEN is a big mistake. What you propose is awkward, hard to learn and very inflexible.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
This coming from a guy whos editor is widely disparaged for being awkward and hard to learn... Alot of my editing involves BOOM types as it's currently the only way to accomplish some things in Legacy. As for ZDOOM and Hexen, hell the best idea there might be to make seperate editors as then you aren't kicking one style mapper or the other in the ass making a one for all editor. Either that or make it switchable between regular and Hexen format editing as the two are quite different. Think about it, are you going to make Heretic linetypes / creatures available when making doom 1 levels? Nope. So why then clutter the screen with options not everymapper is goig to use on a level? Is the BOOM push-through type used so much that it needs to be available everytime the user needs to set the block-monster flag? Why do we have to go the longer route to have every option available for every type of mapping when it's not even relevant? And just so you know I've got about 6 skulltag levels in the works, hmmm, guess you were wrong about me not editing in Hexen format huh? Oops. As soon I get some of this other stuff done I'll finally be able to release some of those levels as some turned out pretty good IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>DeePATAK was at the edge of stock DOOM visiplane limits all the way.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Congratulations on boldly going where hundreds have gone before.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>XTHEATER... Took me about 2 weeks to make including all the textures, scripting etc. Let's see you duplicate that with WADED. Not possible is it? So much for WADED. That's an obvious point you just don't want to concede - it just could be possible that you don't want to learn new avenues of editing that are actualy faster than what you are used to. And that's the key word - what YOU are used to. I try out all new editors (since day 1) and borrow useful concepts. Yours are mostly a WADED style subset far below what's available now. I can't see going backwards.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL, reduced to gloating over one-upping a 7 year old abandoned editor eh? Have I ever said that WADED can do everything that Deapsea does? Nope. I'm saying that what it does do in some cases is faster than how your util does it. Just so you know, not only do I also know how to edit fully with WadAuthor, I also used to know how to edit with your program. I just stopped using Deepsea cuz it wouldn't stop flipping the friggin pasted sectors inside out. No one editor does everything the best, I'm just suggesting to Gherkin that he take all the good things that each editor does and put all that great stuff together in one program. All you've ever done is dictate to us what you feel is the best way without giving any consideration to the people who have to use your stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>FYI, I've done about 200 QUAKE levels (used to have some on the website, but pulled them for bandwidth reasons). So yes, I know a lot about level editing and I know for certain that I'm supported on the concepts I've presented. You presumed that it was totally my own preferences (despite clear evidence to the contrary).<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well this may come as a surprise to ya Deep but we're not editing Quake here, we're editing DOOM and the two aren't quite the same. Me and my friend Dev set up inflatable barricades for tournament paintball games, that doesn't make me any better at DOOM mapping. You know a lot about QUAKE editing, not DOOM editing, you've just admitted as much. Hell you admitted that you've never made a real playable DOOM level and that says a lot. If we were arguing over the setup of a Quake editor then you'd have me here, but we're not so you don't. If all this stuff is what the community has wanted then why so often do you say "I don't like it that way" and "I think thats wrong"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Yes, it's bad because it's old and dated. Clicking through a popup (NOT scrolling) to select types is way faster than having to scroll TWO lists.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
2 lists? Huh? Just cuz somethings new doesn't make it better or worse. What's makes it better or worse is how it works. Startling concept isn't it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>First off, I am entitled to an opinion as much as the next guy (you are not unique there). Secondly, I have way more experience then you on both counts.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually no you don't. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't have nearly the DOOM mapping experience I do. You just said that you've made 3 demo-style levels (all of which I've taken a look at). How on earth does that make you a more experienced DOOM mapper than me? Now if you've got more than 80 doom levels on your HD then yes you are, otherwise you fail it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Ah, but I am the one doing the mapping.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Uh, 3 maps? Okay, whatever, moving on.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You are but one person with very limited variety in editing. Plus I know for sure that what you say is in the minority. I also know for sure that some of your concepts won't fly in daylight because they are not well thought out because you don't have the experience with the other ports.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
A limited variety of editing eh? So because I mainly edit Legacy it means my experience with editing BOOM, EDGE, SKULLTAG and ZDOOM is automatically nullified? I used edge for years before I switched to Legacy. When it didn't look like Legacy was ever going to get bots I started editing for Skulltag and ZDOOM so that I could release a botmatch megawad. Now that Legacy has damn good bots I've been consentrating on a botmatch megawad for them to release first. Working with all those ports I've learned that 90% of the structure is identical no matter what port you use (if any at all). There's no sense in hiding the stuff you're going to need all the time regardless of port or game. Deep, you are but one person with an EXTREMELY limited experience in DOOM level editing. If you are always so right then why do so many people dislike you? Ever thought that so many people use your editor not becuase it's the best but because there is simply no vialble alternative? Get some experience with not just DOOM mapping, but experience using other editors. I've been editing since 95 and have used pretty much every program ever made. I've seen the good stuff and I've seen the bad stuff. I'm not the most experienced or gifted guy out here, but I'm far from the least, too. We've had this argument many times before and we both know that nothing will ever change. All I'm doing is suggesting that Gherkin consider trying something different. What's the point in making an editor if it's just gonna be a WadAuthor or Deepsea clone?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>That's one reason it's best to have ALL editing for an object focused in ONE dialog (per mode), <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
In your opinion. Ever tried it the other way? Why is it a draw back to be able to edit properties in a permanent on-screen bar?

------------------
DOOM Legacy Website Guy (http://legacy.newdoom.com/)
Webmaster The Legacy Editing Resource (http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/).
Webmaster Discharge! DeathMatch Level Reviews (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/server/).

Rellik_jmd

May 10th, 2003, 11:41 AM

Oh and Gherkin, any chance you'll be releasing the source at some point?

------------------
DOOM Legacy Website Guy (http://legacy.newdoom.com/)
Webmaster The Legacy Editing Resource (http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/).
Webmaster Discharge! DeathMatch Level Reviews (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/server/).

Ninja

May 10th, 2003, 11:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Making DOOM levels is retardedly easy, it's just editors like yours that make it difficult. If you were a mapper you'd see that.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, i agree. I used wad author and deepsea and i like wad author a lot more, but its so glitchy and wrecks my levels that i'm forced to use deepsea. I do find deapsea very confusing though and i'm looking forward to see if this new editor has simplicity and effeciency without making it hard to do complex levels. you know, something thats pefect for new and old mappers.

Mr. Chris

May 10th, 2003, 11:50 AM

If the first release is in August or something, at least I'll have something to do when I'm not in my pool or other summer activities. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Gherkin

May 10th, 2003, 01:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>any chance you'll be releasing the source at some point?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, at some point, but not with the first releases I think, because the first release wont have the super-secret-goddamn-powerfull-feature that ive planned.

Mr. Chris:
August will do I guess, not sure if the super-secret-goddamn-powerfull-feature will be ready by then.
Â*

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Doom Connector (http://www.doomconnector.com) - Your first class ticket to hell online! Â*Â* [statistics (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/connector_server.php)]

Doom_Dude

May 10th, 2003, 03:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>August will do I guess, not sure if the super-secret-goddamn-powerfull-feature will be ready by then.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder what that might be. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/eek.gif

Perhaps a muzzle for deepteam and rellik? Just jokin of course. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

------------------
Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

Rellik_jmd

May 10th, 2003, 05:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Yes, at some point, but not with the first releases I think, because the first release wont have the super-secret-goddamn-powerfull-feature that ive planned.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
SLIDE BUTTON SLIGE BUTTON SLIGE BUTTON!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Perhaps a muzzle for deepteam and rellik?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL, it's funny cuz it's true. I know me and DEEP are awful. We've just got those personalities that clash, that's all.

------------------
DOOM Legacy Website Guy (http://legacy.newdoom.com/)
Webmaster The Legacy Editing Resource (http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/).
Webmaster Discharge! DeathMatch Level Reviews (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/server/).

MR_ROCKET

May 10th, 2003, 09:12 PM

cant we all just get along ? oh never mind , to late for that..;p

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>lol, i agree. I used wad author and deepsea and i like wad author a lot more, but its so glitchy and wrecks my levels that i'm forced to use deepsea.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

wad authors not really glitchy , you just have to be precise when using it , cant just slop things together.
ya kinda have to know that will be a mistake before you make it heh , sorta like dck..
along time ago when i started using wad author i would get al kinds of errors and such , now days i never see these things you talk of heh..

Aliotroph?

May 11th, 2003, 02:17 AM

Wow, this is long stuff and I haven't been in here to talk so here comes another huge post. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif

I have to say something on the argument about simplicity. To many it seems that DeePsea is cluttered with options like the hotkeys for example. Truth is, things like that allow you to use it like all or most of your old editors. For example, I can use all the old DEU5.2 hotkeys and love 'em. Rellik does have a point in some cases about making the most-used options visible all the time and hiding the rest though. It would be faster if people could agree, or all had huge screens.

Deepteam is using a bad argument about simplicity though. A hex editor is only simple in implementation. It would never be considered simple to use if you're new to editing/programming/computers. In order to have something that's simpler to use you often need a much more complex implementation to take care of that dirty shit nobody wants to do every time. WadAuthor is an example of an editor where you initially can do a bunch of stuff and it feels simple until you make anything complex, then it's a bitch cause you're dragging vertices when you should have been able to plant them there in the first place. This is because the creator never took the time to make editing functions that didnt rely on prefabs (which made it damn easy to keep weirdo errors out). DeePsea makes stuff simple if you know where things are but looks confusing at first because of all the buttons. It has complex features for finding errors, aligning things, doing math, and doing everything 4 different ways or so. It's hard to find a balance between having stuff to make things fast and ending up discouraging a bunch of people with a pile of buttons. I don't think any editor has this perfect or anywhere near yet. Probably never will since opinions vary too much.

Now, I scream at deep for a second...

YOU REMOVED THE OPTION TO KILL MOUSE POSITIONING?!?!?!?!? WTF!!!!!

Ok, sorry man, but I HATE the fact that anything in my OS is even allowed to move the cursor at all. The cursor is the thing I move. When my programs move it I get confused. It may seem to make sense to have it go back where it was before you opened the dialog, if you think in stack frames or something, but it just slows me down. I think there's a reason the option to have the cursor always land on dialog buttons in Windows is defaulted off. I always have this routine where I click on a menu for a dialog and I go in and push buttons all over the place. When I'm done, I hit enter to save my changes and by then I have my mouse on something else. I click it only to find the dialog open again because it went back to the menu when it should have been where I put it on the screen or at least where I last saw it. Of all the options to kill, I can't see killing that one. I'd rather lose the custom nodes builder option. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

This is where I'm not ranting at deepteam anymore. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Ultimately the best editor would be more of an editing engine with power GUI scripting/building-lik-in-VB features that let people build their own GUI conventions for it. These would be stored in files that users could trade around so users can pick one they like. Of course, this isn't simple to implement and making it fairly simple to use and few mappers would ever use those features, but all mappers would probably happily download those config jobbies. Heh, if only such a dream were possible. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

I think programs can be very intuitive. They never will be entirely unless you have some background as to what's going on but they can be close. For example, any dumbass can figure out Notepad. It's simple to use, but it lacks features. Win95/98/ME/2k/XP are easier than Win3.1 or DOS if you're new. On the other hand, if you have no idea what a computer is, it won't make a difference. I think it was DoomEd that's a perfect example of the least intuitive editor you could possibly build. Took me 15 minutes to figure out where the buttons were to edit everything and I'm a pretty hardcore computer geek.

In the end, I think my solution is probably the FINAL solution for usability but will never likely happen anywhere to that extent. Why is probably the closest with it's abiltiy to script prefab operations for redundent tasks and such. Although, DeePsea is pretty versitile because you can do things often in one of many ways and it can suit different editing styles. As long as we don't go into being DEU 5.21 or DoomEd again, we can't be heading too far off course whatever happens though. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif

------------------
"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Red_Dragon

May 11th, 2003, 05:07 AM

Yo DeePteam

Ur editor why it cost money man i cant use it no more (2 bad) even tho Gherkin's editor looks better i like DeePsea to
i got some errors i found. but screw them
i can use it no more cuz of this
MY MAPS AKWAYS GOT MORE THAN 50000 LINE DEFS http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif

Aliotroph?

May 11th, 2003, 08:06 PM

I think it costs money so he can recover the time he spends making it when he could have been working for someone on some project for money. That's the only reason I'd charge money for a DooM editor anyway.

I think you mean you have 5000 linedefs because most DooM ports still don't support over 32k linedefs I think. Deepteam only just added support for that recently in DeePsea.

------------------
"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

[ud]deathz0r

May 12th, 2003, 03:03 AM

Bleh, DeePSea is bloated with features that most people find useless. I have settled with WadAuthor, but I'll change to Doom Builder if it lives up to the hype and whatnot.

Thank you for wasting a minute of your life by reading this, I shall disappear from here again and abuse more crappy maps.

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Who am I? Ahh, just a nobody (http://deathz0r.slipgate.org/).

formally deathz0r (http://forums.newdoom.com/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getbio&UserName=deathz0r), which was formally deathwarrior (http://forums.newdoom.com/ubbmisc.cgi?action=getbio&UserName=deathwarrior) (blame the crappy forum software)

Gherkin

May 12th, 2003, 07:26 AM

[here (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/temp/builder_012a.exe)] is an alpha version for ya'll :P
Â*

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Doom Connector (http://www.doomconnector.com) - Your first class ticket to hell online! Â*Â* [statistics (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/connector_server.php)]

MR_ROCKET

May 12th, 2003, 08:46 AM

excellent gherkin , this works grate ! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Melfice Darkmage

May 12th, 2003, 09:07 AM

Gherkin:
Gherkin you kick all sorts of ass http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

~insert a very long post here about how Gherkin rules for Doom Connector and how this~

I think you get the idea http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

DeePteam and Rellik:
Guys, you're both really awesome, really, but I'm afraid I have to quote Dr.Dennis Leary in saying shut the fuck up! This is thread is about Gherkin's Doom Editor, one that will be great at that http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif. You guys should really get on an IRC channel sometime and invite everyone and have a Debate of sorts. Would be entertaining. I hope that doesn't offend you guys, but I mean, come'on, I went into this thread to look at all the suggestions and what all Gherkin has to say, then run on a half-page long posts on each page from you two! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm36.gif Once again, no offence, but can you guys try to calm down a little bit here on the long posts?

Et Cetera
I love map editing, but sometimes I just want to beable to map with a somewhat simplified proggy that I don't have to do alot of typing and more clicking with.
While DeePsea has all of it's ups and downs and all arounds, having alot of hotkeys and keycommands, etc., not everyone can memorize those (I can though, I'm just speaking for those who can't).

What it comes down to is each individual person. The reason their's so many editors out there is because different people have different needs. I mean, I personally think WadAuthor sucks but I don't shove it into other people's faces and contantly say "DeePsea is the best, it is the best, it is the one!" (Unlike Palladium does http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm25.gif ).

Just leave eachother alone. Jesus-tap-dancing-christ. Besides, this thread is about Gherkin, not about bickering http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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http://members.lycos.co.uk/darkcitadel/hpbimg/spiralisis.jpg

Mr. Chris

May 12th, 2003, 09:14 AM

I'll wait for a more stable version http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

deepteam

May 12th, 2003, 09:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Deepteam is using a bad argument about simplicity though. A hex editor is only simple in implementation. It would never be considered simple to use if you're new to editing/programming/computers<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>That actually supports my argument - SIMPLE TO USE (think about it). One of my points (using that example) is that "simple" is a very subjective term. What's simple/fast to one is not simple/fast to another. This is almost always a case of what one is USED TO. The DEU users are a good example. They keep insisting that putting down dots and then the next 2 steps is faster than just drawing a line.

A hex editor is the simplest editing program to use in terms of explaining how to enter and change data. Now it turns out that in terms of the application intended it takes a LOT of SIMPLE TO USE steps to actually do this. Conclusion: Even though it's easy to learn to use a hex editor, it's not easy to learn DOOM editing concepts using this editor nor making a level. Many SIMPLE steps are required and there has to be a lot of data calculated.

Absolutely NO program is intuitive .. period. Doesn't matter if it's DOOM or QUAKE or MSWORD -- same concepts are involved. For example, what if I dumped you (experienced computer user) into the best program used for hydraulic analysis and asked for a solution to a flow problem. How far would you get? What's the problem?

If the mouse issue was unnoticed till I mentioned it - it wasn't obvious? Now what exactly would you do it the mouse wasn't positioned on the dialog automatically? Dialogs steal focus and I assume since the dialog was brought up, that is clearly what one wants to interact with. At exit you almost always want go back to the area you were editing vs some random point in the level that for sure won't be related to where you were editing.

Except for the clearly slow system of Palladin's, this has NEVER come up as an issue - even from you - meaning once you get into the flow of editing it does the right thing. That said, I could put it back as an option since I need to fix the select option thing anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>.. best editor .. editing engine with power GUI scripting/building-lik-in-VB features .. people build their own GUI conventions .. stored in files .. users could trade around so users can pick one they like.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>If you look closely that's partially what I did with the toolbars. Besides just doing it because I wanted to do my own toolbars (none of this uses MS code), it was also to see if people would take the time to actually make custom mods. Don't think this ever happened -- showing that this type of thing is done infrequently if at all. Like the keyboard mapping (or OPT files), people want things to work out of the box and DO NOT want to tinker and customize. WHY and XWE allow custom scripting, yet no one has done so. That should tell you something.

To me, the ultimate GUI is one that can recognize speech accurately and can follow hand gestures .. I'm serious. That will happen not too far from now.

I used to teach computer classes from A-Z. At the end of class there is a teacher review. Every once in a while there would be a person that would really roast me. That bothered me quite a bit, till someone I worked with pointed out that the appraisal actually also rated the student. IOW, if he can't understand simple concepts and/or always thinks he's right (even though he has 1/10 the experience), it's a grade on himself.

The other typical problems are unique to online discussion - nothing new there http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

A level editor has to start with a beginner and end up with an expert and attempt to satisfy all the steps in between. You can't make everyone happy. Some "options" just confuse even more. If I had my way, there would be no options - everything just the way I want it http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

I'm doing an automatic texture cleanup routine, but I bet there's going to be somebody who will bitch about me deleting some texture/pnames/lump because it's an animation - even though I will warn that I will not check for those. Should I check for ALL the various ways of doing this? Maybe I will later, but for now let's see what happens. I doubt many people will use this since it's again an advanced tool - mainly a fun coding challenge.

In an objective argument, it's easy to explain why things are done a certain way, not just "opinion". As I did in explaining the choices of dialogs over constant toolbars.

deepteam

May 12th, 2003, 10:52 AM

- this post isn't really about DeePsea, just general things to remember when developing an editor and when listening to posts http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Btw Rellik, it would be nice if you stay away from personal attacks - no one likes that kind of thing. It also should be mentioned that at one time you and I agreed that I would make a WADED style editor (other details I forget) and basically you copped out. (You said money, yet shortly thereafter you spent that much on "hardware" -- so that wasn't true). Doesn't really matter, but telling the truth does.

I've never ever said there's only 1 way to do things. Quite the opposite. I just explained why I did what I did. It's a nasty trait you have to attempt to justify your posts. I'm not sensitive at all to other ideas - otherwise why would I post here?

Criticizing my options and then wanting them is of course stating the obvious. You can't make an editor be everything for everyone, so you need different ways of doing things. I agree 100%. On the flip side, there's the problem of people having to LEARN options - the very thing that is "confusing" about DeePsea (and some other editors too).

Rather than striving for the cheap shot, put some depth into your arguments. If you are a PSP user and switch to PhotoShop, there's a learning curve. Depending on one's understanding of the fundamentals this is either easy or hard. This is true of all programs. I can switch to any DOOM editor (except DOOMED) and instantly know how to use it. That's how I got some of my ideas. But one has to have an open mind. I've tried the WADED stuff and -overall- it's clumsy and takes too much screen space. Sure, IMO, but WADED certainly got left in the dust by the other editors.

DeeP was developed at the SAME time as WADED and had all the essential editing tools/styles now present. Even back then the same basic concepts applied. IOW, a DOS DeeP user can easily adapt to the windows version and visa versa. Again, one should have product knowledge before making leaps of flame (a little joke).

Actually ALL DEU users learn DeeP instantly http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif What does that mean? Btw, you are comparing "free" flamers (like yourself) to people who actually want and try to learn something different. Some of the most accomplished teams use DeePsea - took some 8 years to convince though.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You're saying that we have to use a complicated typerwriter instead of a sleek and fast program.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Bull. I never ever said that. People that constantly make stuff up show a certain lack of integrity and understanding. So far what you have is generallyneither sleek nor fast.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>LOL, reduced to gloating over one-upping a 7 year old abandoned editor eh? <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. DeeP DOS made at the SAME time as WADED could do the same thing. It's the OVERALL time to make a level that is the point. Citing some specific instance is not relevant.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I also used to know how to edit with your program. I just stopped using Deepsea cuz it wouldn't stop flipping the friggin pasted sectors inside out.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL - that's because you never read the docs and is precisely the problem with options. If you had turned the "AS IS" option on, this wouldn't have been a problem. I reversed the option to ON because of people like you NOT reading the docs. That's exactly the problem with options. Attempting to have as many things as possible done only ONE way is clearly better as evidenced by your own lack of option knowledge.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Well this may come as a surprise to ya Deep but we're not editing Quake here, we're editing DOOM and the two aren't quite the same. <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Well this may come as a surpise to ya Rellik, but I used DeePsea to make these levels. I admit, it was a setup - you are pretty predictable http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

I've actually made several 100 levels, mostly deathmatch when DOOM first came out. So your flame again falls on deaf ears.

All the QUAKE levels made used DeePsea http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif I could make true 3D objects, lightning, etc, all using the same interface you see now. I never released this version of DeePsea (just custom OPT files) because there are very confusing QUAKE util error messages that DOOM mappers would have to understand. (I could also do QUAKEII/III in exactly the same way).

Mapping is mapping - game doesn't matter as any experienced level designer knows.

So counting pure DOOM levels (and HEXEN and HERETIC) and then QUAKE, guess I've done about 400 levels - not counting a lot of levels I help out on for technical details.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Deep, you are but one person with an EXTREMELY limited experience in DOOM level editing.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Guess that's not true is it? Putting your foot in your mouth because of arrogance and ignorance must get you in a lot of trouble. Do you ever admit you are wrong in ASSuming things or does that never cross your mind?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade> If you are always so right then why do so many people dislike you?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL - sure I piss guys like you off because it's easy to counter false flames. Why does everyone think you have crummy levels? Get it. This is about the most immature flame type of comment you can make.

You were a KID in 1995 - IOW not relevant. However, since you clearly concede that years of experience count a lot - I've been editing and coding for as long as you are old. I used to make ASCII games (like lunar lander) before PCs came out.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>In your opinion. Ever tried it the other way? Why is it a draw back to be able to edit properties in a permanent on-screen bar?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>What exactly do you think the bottom panels on the DeePsea screen do? Guess you never realized you can click there because that's not obvious (DETH also copied some of this). Obviously I think it is useful in -some- cases, mainly the flags. There are also quick methods to copy and set textures just by keystrokes (no dialog). Reread my post on why this is not a fast way to do general editing. Don't think you actually read the implementation details.

Let's keep this on the objective level and stay away from personal flames. Of course nobody else will read ALL of these long posts, so let's cool it since there's nothing else to add.

MR_ROCKET

May 12th, 2003, 11:01 AM

how bout deep and rellik / rellik and deep , merg heads togethor shake hands and make a sorta plug in for gherkins editor or something? http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

seems how you guys have sooo much information for each other..

Gherkin

May 12th, 2003, 11:18 AM

Fuck off. I just wanted some comment/suggestion on my attemt to make a map editor, heh. You're both cool in my book, but this is absurd. Cant even get a little joke to your attention. Now its already 2 huge posts http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm25.gif , which im not really gonna read through, hehe http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif
Â*

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Doom Connector (http://www.doomconnector.com) - Your first class ticket to hell online! Â*Â* [statistics (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/connector_server.php)]

Melfice Darkmage

May 12th, 2003, 12:03 PM

That's why I was trying to get them to back off of ya Gherkin http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm7.gif

And If I ever spell it Gherking, it's a habit for some odd reason. Don't know why, just is http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif
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http://members.lycos.co.uk/darkcitadel/hpbimg/spiralisis.jpg

Doom_Dude

May 12th, 2003, 12:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>[here] is an alpha version for ya'll :P<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

You Bastard! j/k. Hahahahahaha that's funny Gherkin. Very funny. Not that some people noticed. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/rolleyes.gif

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Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

Mr. Chris

May 12th, 2003, 12:47 PM

Sooooo....what's new today Pascal/Gherkin?

Exl

May 12th, 2003, 12:59 PM

He released a secret alpha version on DC in which he has added full Doom 3 support, the addition of Doom_Dude's coffee cup holder request, a plugin that searches the internet for HTML holes and fixes them, Enhanced Vertices, support for 4096x4096 flats, a firewall, a precalculated set of all possible maps one could ever make, a console with true multitasking capability, support for the Swahilian, Hebrew, Pig Latin and Afrikaans languages and last but not least, he added a full-duplex, quadruple (+stencil) buffered, Z-Buffer capable, dotmatrix enhanced save feature.

Or so I was told. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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WhackEd 1.23.199 (http://home.wanadoo.nl/dennis.meuwissen/whacked)

Life is but for a short moment, death is forever. Live your life while you still can...

Mr. Chris

May 12th, 2003, 01:09 PM

Not funny Exl http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm13.gif

Gherkin

May 12th, 2003, 01:40 PM

Not much new yet, very busy in real life these days, especially this week :\
Â*

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Doom Connector (http://www.doomconnector.com) - Your first class ticket to hell online! Â*Â* [statistics (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/connector_server.php)]

Jow

May 12th, 2003, 02:54 PM

Make the Doom Builder have movement lock key.

It's really annoying when selecting stuff and then I accidently move the selected stuff and then I have to undo the movement and I have to select everything again.

MR_ROCKET

May 12th, 2003, 05:14 PM

another request..
i was thinking , yea oh oh - whatever..
anyhows i was thinking ,make the grid size over 1024..?
unless it would slow things down when zoomed out at such a fine grid..

Rellik_jmd

May 12th, 2003, 05:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Btw Rellik, it would be nice if you stay away from personal attacks<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You seem to forget that most advanced mappers use custom textures and they are not root memorized. Not only that, they may have several 100 new ones for every map.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am an advanced mapper and use loads of custom textures, thanks for insinuating that I'm some brainless n00b.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>ME: That's odd, it very rare that I actually need to look at a texture to know what it is.

YOU: I doubt that very much if you are working with new textures. Somehow (since you missed this point already), I doubt you can memorize 200 new textures without a lot of effort.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Basically here you're saying I'm a liar and not smart enough to identify a texture with a name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>ME: A good coder can make a program intuitive enough that they don't need to spend 15 weeks learning how to use it.

YOU: The term "intuitive is bull. Proof? Easy, give a guy who knows nothing about DOOM and ask him to make a level. He'll be stumped. The rest is b.s.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, so now what I say is bullshit even though on both sides it's all opinion. How very kind and open-minded of you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>If you pay attention to this thread, notice that people are asking for MORE choices not fewer, the opposite of what you claim.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here apparently I'm not smart enough to pay attention to what people are saying (perhaps it's because I never learnt to reed gude in skool) and I'm claiming to want fewer options. Funny how I never actually said that but attack me for it anyway, I don't mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>ME: You know more about coding, that's a given, but have you ever thought that I might know more about mapping?

YOU: I doubt it. Read on.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm, have you SEEN any of my stuff? I'm trying to think of some ground breaking level you've released or a mod or something but I'm not coming up with anything. Heh, next you're going to say you're better than Kurt Kessler...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>ME: If you've made more than I'm wrong, but otherwise for a guy who's made 3 maps you seem to think you're some kind of mapping authority.

YOU: You got balls, but that's about it.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are so well mannered Deep, I don't know how I could've ever found you insulting and petty.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>You are but one person with very limited variety in editing.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Legacy, EDGE, ZDoom, Skulltag, BOOM... yes it's a wonder I know how to put together a map at all. You judge my ability without knowing anything about me, yeah very nice. I said many times that I thought you may have made more DOOM maps, I've tried to be open-minded about your abilities but what's the point when you aren't civil enough to do the same?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I also know for sure that some of your concepts won't fly in daylight because they are not well thought out because you don't have the experience with the other ports.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why do you just assume I have no experience with other ports? Very open-minded of ya Ghandi, err Deep.

Up until the above messages of yours everything WAS civil, you're the one making it personal. I didn't start us down this path, you did. You're right that no one likes this sort of thing. Makes me wonder why you'd do it then. Funny how you try to make yourself out as the victim, not likely bub. The fact is Deep, you're just not nice enough to have a decent conversation with. This thread could've been 100 times more productive if you hadn't baited me and I hadn't fallen for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>It also should be mentioned that at one time you and I agreed that I would make a WADED style editor (other details I forget) and basically you copped out. (You said money, yet shortly thereafter you spent that much on "hardware" -- so that wasn't true). Doesn't really matter, but telling the truth does.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, when you started throwing around 4 digit numbers I decided to go elsewhere. Anyone here wanna spend that kind of money on an editor? Not bloody likely. What, did you think that was supposed to make me out as some kind of badguy Deep? I never made any deal with you, never set anything in stone specifically because I wasn't sure how much you were going to end up wanting for it. Then when the price started to rocket I pulled out. Did I ever say anything bad about you for wanting that much money? NO. Did I go around whining "Deep wanted $XXXX.00 to make my editor so he's blah blah blah"? NO. Why? Because I know you are in this to make money WHICH IS YOUR RIGHT. I may not agree with it but I don't have to do I? When the price got too steep I kindly withdrew. There was no agreement, no contract, some questions and some answers but that was it. Are you angry about it or something because of all the stuff you could've brought up this makes no sense? Is that what all this animosity is rooted in? My decision not to get you to build the editor for me? Let it go. Wasn't that like 2 or 3 years ago?!?

I should've known better than to let myself be baited by you but that won't happen again.

All I did was suggest some stuff for Gherkins editor. Key words: "suggest" and "Gherkins editor". That's the last time I suggest anything as look at the shit I get for it.

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DOOM Legacy Website Guy (http://legacy.newdoom.com/)
Webmaster The Legacy Editing Resource (http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/).
Webmaster Discharge! DeathMatch Level Reviews (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/daewoo/server/).

Aliotroph?

May 12th, 2003, 11:16 PM

Hmm, deep is probably right about the toolbars. I customize my toolbars in every program except DeePsea but that's because I don't use them at all in DeePsea. I just use all the hotkeys I learned with DEU.

Yeah, GUIs with voice commands and hand gestures are a good idea. I've used stuff like that. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif

The argument about simplicity finally makes sense. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

You guys spend too much time arguing over stuff and not explaining things fully the first time so as to lure each other in more. It's dirty.
http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm3.gif

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Palladium

May 13th, 2003, 02:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Yes, it's bad because it's old and dated.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then why are you Bothering with DooM at all? I like it, but aparently you think its bad.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade> I customize my toolbars in every program except DeePsea but that's because I don't use them at all in DeePsea.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dont edit the toolbars in Deepsea because they have every feature I want or need.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>It takes too long to learn<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE> So does Photoshop 7, but most of us still learn to use it because It just puts out far better results then Paint (shop pro). In my opinion, and Most of the people who Put in a few hours to learn the Features of Deepsea, The Initial investment/Longterm Payoff ratio is well worth the Time spent learning it.

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celebrate the new found Freedom of a soul, as Death is, after all, but an escape from the Otherwise endless suffering of the real and tangible worlds.
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The Mysterious Inconsistency Failure Revealed:
When any player becomes consistent with the server, they fail to be inconsistent, which violates the latency laws of the internet and so they must be kicked before bad thingz start to happen

Palladium

May 13th, 2003, 03:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>So does Photoshop 7, but most of us still learn to use it because It just puts out far better results then Paint (shop pro). <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>
Someone will Point out that Paint Shop pro does have the advantage of being Better to Apply palletts to Doom Images, and I asure you that I recognize that it does have its advantages, but That is not the Point of my mentioning it.

This is a Pre-emptive reply to someones flame about my saying this

------------------
celebrate the new found Freedom of a soul, as Death is, after all, but an escape from the Otherwise endless suffering of the real and tangible worlds.
------------------
The Mysterious Inconsistency Failure Revealed:
When any player becomes consistent with the server, they fail to be inconsistent, which violates the latency laws of the internet and so they must be kicked before bad thingz start to happen

ToXiCFLUFF

May 13th, 2003, 05:22 AM

Really? I found that Photoshop was just as good.....

Anyway, I agree with you Pallad. I mean generally, look at any professional quality media creation package - Photoshop, Maya, 3dSMax, Terragen and a million others. They all have loads of options because at the end of the day, although it requires more patience to learn in the first place, the extra features will save you a lot of time in the long term.

Imagine working with a 3d model... the simplest (and the way it used to be for most Q1, Q2 model editors) way is to just create things triangle by triangle. However, learn some of the more advanced (complicated) mesh manipulation methods and it will save you a lot of time in the long run.

Anyway, hopefully the huge rants will be over in here. They've probably scared Gherkin off, which can only be a good thing because he may spend time on the editor instead of the forum.

MR_ROCKET

May 13th, 2003, 08:27 AM

for a true argument wouldn't you have to use both most common editors , deepsea and wad author?

you cant really just use 1 and dogg the other if you see my point..

anyways ENOUGH of this CRAP about the other editors , we all know gherkins editor will blow the others away ! now STFU http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

i doubt that gherkin wanted to make a happy post about his new editor in dev and watch it catch on fire?! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/hotclosedb.gif wtf lol

well on the other hand he probably did but not like it went i'm sure..

Mr. Chris

May 13th, 2003, 03:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>anyways ENOUGH of this CRAP about the other editors , we all know gherkins editor will blow the others away ! now STFU http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm1.gif

Doom_Dude

May 13th, 2003, 09:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>anyways ENOUGH of this CRAP about the other editors , we all know gherkins editor will blow the others away ! now STFU<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. Gherkin will have to do a fine job to get me away from the dots in doomcad. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm12.gif

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Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

Aliotroph?

May 14th, 2003, 04:51 PM

I tried DoomCAD and got a "subscript out of range" exception, which is a bad sign. Usually if one of my programs gives that one, it's a very very bad thing going on.

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Doom_Dude

May 14th, 2003, 04:56 PM

I never see that unless I delete a certain linedef and that's in 5.1 I fire up 6.1 to delete stuff and then go back to 5.1 again. Otherwise 5.1 runs fine. Then again if you try to run either on anything other than win95 or 98 you can just forget it. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

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Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

MR_ROCKET

May 15th, 2003, 10:47 PM

heh , yea im using this damn xp pro crap that runs everything except some dos based apps , then i have to enable that damn combopatibilitie mode thingy.. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm6.gif

anyhows , hey gherkin ?
hows your doom mappers ball n' chain program going so fare , smooth ?

yea ok im trying to be funny and liven some things up in here a little.. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Mr. Chris

May 19th, 2003, 11:11 AM

bump

Gherkin

May 19th, 2003, 11:51 AM

chill http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif
Â*
Â*

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Doom Connector (http://www.doomconnector.com) - Your first class ticket to hell online! Â*Â* [statistics (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/connector_server.php)]

Aliotroph?

May 19th, 2003, 12:16 PM

ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA ALPHA ALPH ALPHA ALPH http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Melfice Darkmage

May 20th, 2003, 08:53 AM

*cough*cough*Alpha*cough*cough

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http://members.lycos.co.uk/darkcitadel/hpbimg/agntsmthsig.jpg "Me, Me, Me, Me. The great thing about being me, is there's so many of me" - Agent Smith 2.0

iori

May 20th, 2003, 09:17 AM

heh im gonna see that movie soon. Looks good - my friend saw it and said it was fun, and i trust his movie reviews.

But back to DooMBuilDer...
...Usually i favour editors where the grid zooms out with the editor such as editors like deu/windeu16/wadauthor, because then i knbow what scale im working with. Wadauthor has 2 grids actually. One is the working grid, and who's size is displayed on the status bar. The other grid shows a set size; the defaut is 64. This is good because it help you postion flats according to their orientation.

The reason i stopped using windeu is because the latest version didnt have gridzooming or even a marker showing what siz your grid is. This is very helpful because adjusting the grid then looking down at the bottom corner of the screen can be a pain. Im not trying to impress my specific choice upon you, Gherkin, but if the editor can do these things (or wont) then im afraid i'll stick to one that does. For me this is a big feature that cant be dismissed when choosing an editor.

Mr. Chris

May 20th, 2003, 05:55 PM

*coughsigpictoobigcough*

http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm44.gif

Props022

May 21st, 2003, 05:05 PM

Gherkin, can you add a random map making feature. You should be able to click a button, say under Pre-made Stuff, and presto! a full map has been made (Textures, Player starts, switch's, doors, enemies, keys, and so on). I think that'd be GREAT! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm3.gif

/\
||
Hey look! My first use of a smiley, ever!

***edit***
Wait, I used one for the message icon too http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm34.gif

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You can call me Props

http://www.dmhgames.ath.cx/clan/

Doom_Dude

May 21st, 2003, 05:31 PM

Have you never heard of Slige?

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Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

Props022

May 21st, 2003, 07:12 PM

Are you refering to me? And if so, you're joking right?

Better yet, what is it?

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You can call me Props

http://www.dmhgames.ath.cx/clan/

Doom_Dude

May 21st, 2003, 07:29 PM

Yeah I was joking.... ummm your joking too right? lol

It's a henky random level makig jobby. lol

But you already knew that.

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Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

Props022

May 21st, 2003, 08:36 PM

Yeah, I'm joking. LOL. I like to post completely random posts occasionally; to mix things up a bit. But what if random levels were possible....

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You can call me Props

http://www.dmhgames.ath.cx/clan/

Jow

May 22nd, 2003, 05:58 AM

Make the Doom Builder be able to adjust thing's Z position even in normal doom maps. Would be really great.

Lowlandsrouter

May 22nd, 2003, 02:57 PM

Just heared about doom connector...

it's like fuckin on cocaine

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www.lowlandsrouter.tk (http://www.lowlandsrouter.tk)

ToXiCFLUFF

May 22nd, 2003, 09:42 PM

Haven't fucked on cocaine, yet, but DoomC is absolutely awesome I must say, after getting broadband yesterday.

Lowlandsrouter

May 23rd, 2003, 03:05 AM

It's only a "basic instinct" quote
(paul verhoeven's & jan de bont's masterpiece

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www.lowlandsrouter.tk (http://www.lowlandsrouter.tk)

MR_ROCKET

May 29th, 2003, 12:45 PM

lol

anyhows.. whats the stats on the Doom Builder Gherkin ? http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm4.gif

iori

May 29th, 2003, 02:43 PM

lol i hope to got that any of you DONT actually do cocaine... http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm23.gif

ToXiCFLUFF

May 29th, 2003, 05:31 PM

Well, I'd try anything (apart from really horrifying things) once. But I haven't yet tried that drug, no.

Anyway, I'm curious on DB's state too... I'm hoping that Gherkin's recent silence is an indication of him being hard at work on the editor :)

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Doom_Dude

May 29th, 2003, 06:25 PM

I almost emailed Gherkin to find out how it's going with DooM BuildeR....

http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm12.gif

------------------
Vilecore@The Megawad (http://megawad.newdoom.com)
http://megawad.newdoom.com/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The NewdooM Community Project (http://megawad.newdoom.com/ndcp)

Aliotroph?

May 29th, 2003, 07:47 PM

He's probably got it rendering DooM maps now so they look like DooM III and even working on the Atari 2600. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

MR_ROCKET

May 30th, 2003, 01:16 PM

heres a little useless info :P

i talkd to Gherkin a bit yesterday..

he was workin on Doom Builder at that time..

he wouldnt tell me much more than that heh..

although i did find out that Rellik touched Gherkins butt..

Stphrz

May 30th, 2003, 07:47 PM

'K d00ds, leave the guy to work in peace. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm4.gif

I look forward to trying this new editor.

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A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous, got me? -Captain Beefheart

Gherkin

May 31st, 2003, 07:40 AM

Heh, my recent silence was because i was very busy in real life, but im back on the editor now.

Its coming good, but im still coding all kinda features and interface stuff that ya'll would consider obvious and expect to see them. Like merging linedefs, dragging selection, copy/paste, etc. As soon as I get vacation (after about a month from now i guess) development will go faster ofcourse.
Â*

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Doom Connector (http://www.doomconnector.com) - Your first class ticket to hell online! Â*Â* [statistics (http://www.xodemultimedia.com/connector_server.php)]