3d Doom Editors

[pickle_hammer]

Hello fellow newdoomers. I'm just learning how to edit http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/frown.gif and was wondering if there are any 3d doom editors that let you explore around your wad and edit; similar to worldcraft for halflife. Thanks!

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The Atomic Chicken Music Team - Making MIDI files for whatever project necessary. Contact me for further details. Members: pickle_hammer, Monkey, Fanatic

[Doom_Dude]

Hmmmm, that would be kewl. Don't know of any thou and my doomcad jobby is all 2D. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm16.gif

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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[MidnightStorm]

Deep and Deepsea are the only two I can think of off the bat.

MS

[Aliotroph?]

DeePsea isn't really a 3D editor. It just has that cheap 3D preview feature. I want a DooM editor that operates like BUILD. That was fast editing! Now if only it had been more stable. WorldCraft is a tedious program to use in my opinion.

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[mystic]

I like buid but its not really fast, if you want to make a staircase its really tedious. I prefer being able to tell a sector what height the floor and cieling are rather than keep counting pgup. I loved the way it worked with textures though. I might knock out some more Duke maps, or maybe Shadow Warrior, thats a fun game.

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Creator of 'The Mummy Phuquers' and 'Mystic' series of Doom wads.
also creator of ANDYDM1.WAD (my favourite)

MYSTICMEG IS CUMMING SOON
http://www.murray6.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/liam/6.gif
http://www.gtroad.net

[Aliotroph?]

Build was really unstable and had loads of graphics bugs too. I'm not sure why you're worried about stairs though. You almost never use them.

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[mystic]

I use them a lot in my urban levels but Ive only released a couple of those so far. They are all (ten levels) sitting on my hard drive waiting for the finishing touches. I also use a lot of stairs in the 'Grail Quest' series of wads, again I only released two of them so far but I have plenty more waiting in the wings.

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Creator of 'The Mummy Phuquers' and 'Mystic' series of Doom wads.
also creator of ANDYDM1.WAD (my favourite)

MYSTICMEG IS CUMMING SOON
http://www.murray6.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/liam/6.gif
http://www.gtroad.net

[Big_al]

I used Quark (Quake Army Knife) when I was messing about with Quake 1,2 levels.
It had a good 3d preview type of thing.

[ReX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif">quote:</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade><font face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif" size="2">....was wondering if there are any 3d doom editors that let you explore around your wad and edit; similar to worldcraft for halflife.</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, no. However, both DeepSea and WadAuthor have ways to test your level without exiting the editor. You can pop in to your work in progress, decide if you like your editing, and get back in the editor. It's not as cool as making editorial changes on the fly, but hey -- we're talking about a game that's almost 8 years old.

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Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' -- Janis Joplin

[Big_al]

Does the preview mode show the textures?

[Doom_Dude]

I do believe it does, otherwise what would be the point?


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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[Puppetmaster]

Big_al: The 3D viewer, no, I have talked with them (Deepsea) about that and they said it wasn't possible/pratical because of the way Doom is coded. Something like that anyway, it was a while ago. I asked about changing it so we could build nodes, aline textures, and see it as you work like the Quake editors.
But, the other preview mode, yes, it runs the wad you are currently working on, in-game. When your done and cancel out, it returns to the editor. It works with what ever port your using also.

[deepteam]

It's true, DeePsea does have 2 "cheap" 3D previews http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

To walk through a level (you have to build nodes though) press W.

To see a 3d wireframe press ` or ~

Build was a schizo editor - pretty clunky and awful in 2D mode and pretty jazzy with the "in the level" stuff. Considering his age and all - pretty damn impressive stuff.

Doom does not have convex polygons - something required for Direct3D/OpenGL api stuff - making this very hard.

I wrote a pgm to convert DOOM levels to Quake and the biggest problem was the above. (The Richter levels were done that way). Was about 50% successful - had to rebsp subareas to get it to conform, much like GLBSP does.

Will look at this some more when my "to do" list is done. There's a short list left. For example, just added undo/redo up to 100x.

Now if only the ports would/could reload new levels on the fly, it would make life a lot simpler. Go bug um for this feature.

[Aliotroph?]

I don't think the 3D preview really needs to become a fully functional walkthrough. All it really needs are texture display or at least better definition between the different faces.

------------------
"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[deepteam]

Thanks for the explanation, although, for some strange reason I didn't take the "cheap" comment as a flame. Probably because you come across as a straight shooter and also because it really is a quickie=cheap way of doing it.

Plan to do it using DirextX 3D stuff. Just haven't had time to play with it to see how feasible this is without having to write tons of code. I'm not about to do a source port http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

[Aliotroph?]

Some part of my intuition says there should be a way to do it without too much difficulty. I could be wrong. I'm totally an amateur programmer and I know almost nothing of Sea++. I can understand the difficulty; I don't even understand 3D drawing (the math) right now.

I'll add a bit to what I think the preview could use. If it's possible, a rudimentary sprite placement thingy would be cool. This isn't as important as making the planes visible though.

As for as cheap shots at DeePsea go, I think most people just don't want to pay. It can be inconvenient I suppose and many like their free editors for their big wads. How much money does it make anyway?

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[Puppetmaster]

Hey Jack http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif just in case you didn't know, is Looney2ner here. Keep up the Good work my friend. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif I think it's still $35.00, If I'm wrong, the DeepTeam will correct me. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif but, you can check out the site and get the price too. http://www.sbsoftware.com
As far as charging for it:
I just feel its a matter of choice... I don't care what editor a person uses. I had a choice to pay for it.. I felt Deepsea was the best editor for me, and I gladly paid for it. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif Even Id software recognizes that the people that build the editors have the right to charge for their work. But... it seems to be the biggest complaint that people have against it.

http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm28.gif http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm4.gif

[ReX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif">quote:</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade><font face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif" size="2">...people that build the editors have the right to charge for their work. But... it seems to be the biggest complaint that people have against it.</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>People would complain even if you gave them stuff for free. Ignore them.

If people are unwilling to pay for something they can go elsewhere. As far as anybody can tell, no one is forcing them to buy the product. If they don't like the price they can haul their business and their sorry asses down the street.

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Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' -- Janis Joplin

[mystic]

Im just hauling my sorry ass down the street.

I think Pickle Hammer is trying Deepsea, he sounded delighted with it after I suggested he use it instead of DETH, which he was struggling to get to grips with.

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Creator of 'The Mummy Phuquers' and 'Mystic' series of Doom wads.
also creator of ANDYDM1.WAD (my favourite)

MYSTICMEG IS CUMMING SOON
http://www.murray6.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/liam/6.gif
http://www.gtroad.net

[ReX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif">quote:</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade><font face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif" size="2">Im just hauling my sorry ass down the street.</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>Recommending a product to someone else is hardly a way to haul your sorry ass etc. Heh. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' -- Janis Joplin

[Aliotroph?]

Do you have to pay the $15 US every time you upgrade the version? That could get expensive after a while. Maybe one day in life I'll find time again for wads and whatnot, but not now. I guess the price doesn't really matter to me then.

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[deepteam]

Doom levels (as is) can't be done using D3D without significant work. If they could, then the ports wouldn't have all this trouble get floor-over-floor to work http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Simple areas are ok, it's odd shaped areas that cause trouble, plus the pillars inside of same. I have to do a rebsp around those.

Price via ground mail is $29 +$5s/h. I have email delivery only for $29, but I always want to confirm first that one can receive a 750kb file attachment (not all mailboxes can handle that - or clean the mailbox).

Upgrades are an interesting dilemna. Now if I never made any changes (as is the case for all the other shareware editors), this would never come up http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

But since I do make changes, there is a $15 charge if more than 6 months have elapsed. If one upgrades a lot, I give free upgrades depending on if you are a nice person http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

One could consider the purchase as the most current editor available and ignore upgrades. At least you have an up-to-date editor.

Obviously the choice is yours, not something to argue about though http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

And thanks Mystic.

[Aliotroph?]

It sound like you've got this all figured out deepteam. I'd be really tempted to buy the thing if I was heavily into mapping right now. I should try it again and see if I really like it. Your website does a good job of selling it.

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[mystic]

No problem deepteam, I love DETH but realise its not exactly easy to learn and not for someone who wants into editing in a hurry. It was easy for me because I used DEU before and its almost identical, but I remember how long it took to learn DEU.

I think a lot of us are put off Deepsea because we dont have Dollars here in Europe. Just a thought.

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Creator of 'The Mummy Phuquers' and 'Mystic' series of Doom wads.
also creator of ANDYDM1.WAD (my favourite)

MYSTICMEG IS CUMMING SOON
http://www.murray6.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/liam/6.gif
http://www.gtroad.net

[Aliotroph?]

LOL@learning DEU! Here's how it went when I was 13:

"Swwwwwweeeeeet! A DooM level editor!" ... *reading manual* "...sectors made from lindefs... change lineder type to... normal vector must be on outside..."

*tries to run level with door and sector on back side rises with door - this was already after 3 hours of work*

"FUCK!!!!! Why won't the friggin' door work right?!?!?!?" *looks through tutorial with no results - starts random tweaking*...

One month later: *finds option: 'Swap Sidedefs' - "Warning: For experts only. Do not continue unless you know what you are doing". "Aw, what the Hell"...

*runs level with door again*... "IT WORKED!!!!! HOLY SHIT! It actually worked!!!

*bounces around house for 10 minutes doing matrix-like moves*

Yeah, I remember learning DEU. Loads of fun that was. Interesting how I ended up in comp-sci. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm12.gif

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[mystic]

I got pissed off with the Docs and used a book by Hank Leukart called 'The Doom Hackers Guide'. I think the author was only 15 when he wrote it but its a really useful book. I still have it here in front of me, under the mouse mat.

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Creator of 'The Mummy Phuquers' and 'Mystic' series of Doom wads.
also creator of ANDYDM1.WAD (my favourite)

MYSTICMEG IS CUMMING SOON
http://www.murray6.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/liam/6.gif
http://www.gtroad.net

[Doom_Dude]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif">quote:</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade><font face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, serif" size="2">I got pissed off with the Docs and used a book by Hank Leukart called 'The Doom Hackers Guide'. I think the author was only 15 when he wrote it but its a really useful book. I still have it here in front of me, under the mouse mat.</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh! I have the same book right here ontop of my scanner. I found 'The DooM Hackers Guide' in a bargain bin at Staples: Business Depot for $3.99 and that's how I got started. Tried DoomCad 5.1 first, straight off the CD that came with the guide and I've stayed with it ever since.

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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[ReX]

Am I the only one that didn't RTFM? I got started editing by bugging the crap out of people that were patient enough to answer my questions. Ian Wilson, the creator of the excellent Herian2 TC, was the catalyst. Replied to my many emails with clarity and precision. Guys like Rick "Wild Man" Clark, Fanatic, and Lüt also answered my numerous queries on the forums.

I guess because of how I got started, now I feel obliged to help people with their DooM editing questions.

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Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' -- Janis Joplin

[deepteam]

In also never read any manual for DEU. The trick (for me and I think anyone else) was just understanding what it was I was creating. Once the lights turned on, I slapped my head silly. That took me a month though http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

DeePsea, WA (name your editor) are like a stroll in the park in the learning dept.

Not sure what you mean "dont have Dollars here in Europe". Not having money? Conversion is not a problem - CC is automatic and Western Union, P.O. and banks have checks that solve the problem.

[Aliotroph?]

Hank Leukart was only 15?!?!? He was on the beta testing team for Descent. I wish I could have done that. He also wrote the official DooM FAQ.

The problem with DEU was that it always screwed up the sidedefs when you drew sectors yourself. Swapping them was the only way to fix it, but they didn't document this. They also liked to scare you away with that damned warning message (as if swapping sidedefs was going to permanently damage your level).

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[Doom_Dude]

If he was only 15 when he wrote that guide, then congrats to him for doing such a great job. R U sure he was 15 at the time? That was just a random guestimate, right?

WooT! Post 5666

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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[MidnightStorm]

I think I'll stick to being a doctor rather than messing with DEU LOL

Personally, though, I prefer to playtest my levels as I make them, checking out the "feel" of the level, making sure everything works right, if there's any bugs or texture errors, how it plays as far as difficulty and items go, and so forth, and for my wife and I to take looks at the rooms and see what ideas we can come up with, and try out now things...plus it gives me an excuse to slack off http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm35.gif

MS

[Doom_Dude]

OK DoC! That's kewl that you're wife helps you out with the level designing http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

P.S. Some "AssHat" just answered one of your posts over yonder.

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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[mystic]

Yes, Im sure he was only 15 when he wrote the book, I distinctly remember reading it somewhere. If you check the back cover near the bottom it says 'he attends high school at blah blah blah'.

He got noticed by the publishers because his FAQ was the most used FAQ for any game on the internet, so they asked him to write a book.

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Creator of 'The Mummy Phuquers' and 'Mystic' series of Doom wads.
also creator of ANDYDM1.WAD (my favourite)

MYSTICMEG IS CUMMING SOON
http://www.murray6.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/liam/6.gif
http://www.gtroad.net

[Aliotroph?]

Damn lucky kid he is.

------------------
"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[Doom_Dude]

Hey I see that now Mystic. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm15.gif

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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[Rellik_jmd]

*bites tongue

Eeeeargh! I can't not say it! DEEPTEAM, why won't you make the people a simpler, plainer level editor when scores of people would pay the same price as for a feature-packed everything-editor?! Less work for the same amount of money! Doesn't that make sense? And above all IT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT! I HATE WADED! I HATE WADAUTHOR! I HATE ALL EDITORS!

*runs screaming into woods

No need to flame or reply, as I know no one cares about this but me. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm14.gif

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Member of Team DEIM (http://www.teamdeim.com/)
Webmaster The DOOM Editing Resource (http://www.teamdeim.com/der/)

[deepteam]

why won't you make the people a simpler, plainer level editor
==========================

LOL - that's a common statement, but simply MISSES the whole point. Extra features is NOT the same as being complicated (implied by stating make "simpler"). It's the simplest level editor for Doom there is.

Just draw the level and edit attributes. BAM, how simple can it get? You do have to do SOMETHING to make a level. Or use the prefabs - some might think that is simpler http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

You do NOT have to use extended features. For example, tools like Import/Export/Merge etc, are complete hidden. For the simplest view, all you can have on the screen is the level and nothing else.

You do NOT have to set options - defaults work fine for most things - although the merge tolerance should be 0 for extremely tight maps to avoid having to cancel merge messages.

All this really is no different than MS Word (or PSP). These both have loads of features that you DO NOT HAVE to use. Just type your thingy and forget about fancy fonts, tables, graphs and so on.

But I suspect you claim MS Word is also not simple (anyway that's a common post I read). A comment like that about MS Word misses the point too!

But most importantly, why don't you explicitly DESCRIBE the features of a "simple" level editor that will still let you edit all aspects of a level? It's nice to have an OBJECTIVE list to argue about http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

[Pate]

Microsoft Word is not simple. But that's not because it has a lot of different options. It's because the default settings are crap. It has a million "helper" functions that are annoying, create ugly output and are enabled by default. Disabling them is a major pain.

At least this was the case with Word97 and earlier. I haven't used any newer versions.

[ReX]

How is it possible to have more than 40 replies, but only 2 views of this thread?

/ReX smells something fishy in the woods, but is too chicken to investigate.

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Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose' -- Janis Joplin

[Doom_Dude]

Some people sneak in here somehow methinks. You know, like that Lut character, he's kinda sneaky! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm32.gif

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http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/sig/vilesig1.GIF
The Megawad (http://www.newdoom.com/hosted/themegawad/)
Deathcore & Vilecore Ver2.0 is coming!
Gimme a wicked weapon a mean assed monster in a kewl level and an engine that delivers.

[Rellik_jmd]

I want you to know DEEP that I'm not mad at you or have any kind of a grudge or anything despite the jackass way I've acted in the past. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif It's just frustration at having to work so hard to do what I really love doing.

Here's the URL to exactly what I want, you've seen it before: http://www.teamdeim.com/rellik/deu2k/index.html

Here's the deal, I'd PAY you to make this editor for me. I'm also absolutely sure that LOADS of people would pay 15-20 bucks for it. When I first announced the project I got almost 50 emails the first day from people who were just waiting for an editor like this, many who have stopped editing DOOM all together. Regardless of what you may think about making a "dumbed down" editor, the simple fact is there is a big market for it. You're in this to make software and sell it to people right? Then give the people what they want! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif I still get a few emails a month asking if the editor is done but sadly the project died without even a pathetic little whimper, but hey, that's life.

Seriously, give people the option of buying what they want. You'll make money on a product that requires half as much work. Doesn't that sound great?

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Member of Team DEIM (http://www.teamdeim.com/)
Webmaster The DOOM Editing Resource (http://www.teamdeim.com/der/)

[deepteam]

I'd say that almost ALL the features you want are in DeePsea. It edits and saves ALL the Edge lumps and has external configuration type files and so on. The only difference is "make sector" which is really an EXTRA step that is not required in DeePsea [give me an objective rationale for why an extra step is desired].

The customizable Toolbars and the standard top "mode" bar have the everyday buttons. AND arguably much "simpler" than Waded http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

The "screenshot" I see of what you want is basically NO DIFFERENT than most other editors. A different style, yes, but essentially the same ole stuff (not really simpler).

BUT, that is not really the way you want it. Your specs: - "The editor I want won't differ in function that much differently from WinDeu" - and then forcing Waded specs in the same breath is .. err ... Windeu and Waded are like fire and ice in the interface dept.

"Here's the deal, I'd PAY you to make this editor for me."

OK - how much? No source code unless you are willing to pay http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif You HAVE to finalize the final interface you want and no changing your mind back and forth. What you have now is insufficient and ambiguous. E.g., do you want ZDOOM/HEXEN support?

In a few days I'm introducing optional docking areas for the toolbars, changing the toolbar options to one dialog and keystroke, up to 100 levels of undo. And some other odds and ends. You should check it out and see how it works. There is an interactive tutorial and a "reading" tuturial on how to "draw" a level.

"Regardless of what you may think about making a "dumbed down" editor"

But you are making a misstatement here. This is NOT a "dumbed down" editor at all. Merely trying to copy a style that you got used - a common rationale.

"You'll make money on a product that requires half as much work. Doesn't that sound great?"

How will it be 1/2 as much work? Looks like exactly the SAME amount of work. Editing is editing is editing. There are basics that ALL editors have to provide.

But I tell you what. If you think this will "sell", I'll do it if you pay a realistic amount of money for 160 hrs of work http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

So firm up the specs to FINAL (like who does the Windows Help file), no changes from that point on - unless you are willing to pay for changes. Standard business rules http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

[Rellik_jmd]

I'm so burnt out on the whole project I'm not even sure I have the energy anymore. I fought and fought and fought, and honestly it seems like whatever I do, it still wouldn't become a reality.

Just out of curiousity though, how much would you charge to make a windows version of WADED, identical in EVERY fashion but one: it works. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif No Help, I'd set up a website, no error checking (sounds rediculous, I know) No port specific features, just plain old WADED, but functional. Hell, if WADED as it is now could handle larger maps I wouldn't need a new editor.

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Member of Team DEIM (http://www.teamdeim.com/)
Webmaster The DOOM Editing Resource (http://www.teamdeim.com/der/)

[Aliotroph?]

Oops, almost left a big post here before reading all the others. Part of me can see where Rellik's comming from, but I think I'd lean toward something more like DeePsea.

A concern I think Rellik shares is that we might end up thinking a whole lot about project management. This is the kind of things that happens with IDEs for programming. You have to keep track of what all these files are doing. I guess all I can say is that IF it's done right I'd still go for DeePsea's way.
------------------
"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[deepteam]

A concern I think Rellik shares is that we might end up thinking a whole lot about project management.
==================================

What do you mean? Project management for coding or level creation?

For coding: not a biggie. Like I've argued before, it takes ONE "can and will do" person. That's the way it is almost ALL the time. It has to be or else nothing ever happens http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

For level creation, DeePsea already does that. Projects can have ANY name you like. Inside of a project are all the WAD files that belong together. These are all automatically loaded when a PRJ (project) is opened.

[deepteam]

Come'on now, let's not play around. Either you are serious or you are not.

Here's how you started:

"Here's the deal, I'd PAY you to make this editor for me."

Then when I asked what the "PAY" would be for 160 hrs of work - making essentially your "dream editor" - you post:

"I'm so burnt out on the whole project I'm not even sure I have the energy anymore."

Well, you haven't fought with me. I've only seen you post a few times. You hardly need much energy - I'm the one that has to do the work.

If you want it to become a reality, you have to get REAL in return.

"Just out of curiousity though, how much would you charge to make a windows version of WADED, identical in EVERY fashion"

Why is this a "curiosity" now? Seems like you changed your mind on your original offer or you would have answered my question eh?

A pure duplication of Waded is actually more work then adopting a Waded vertical tool section (as it is now) and using (copying) more advanced features as available in DeePsea.

For example, why would you want Waded's texture browser?

However, if you somehow think the "old" methods have merit, fine - it's your dollar http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif Just remember it can't look exactly the same because of the way Windows makes dialogs/toolbars look.

The time is the same 160 hours. What is the final result worth to you? That's the only question that's relevant. Either I'll think that's enough to spend time getting the specs in a precise manner from you or I won't.

Or I can duplicate a Waded optional (right side) custom tool bar in 16 hours of work (coding, testing, docs).

Totally up to you. Is it worth something?

[Rellik_jmd]

On being burnt out: First I get about 15 coders who say they'll do the project. After endless emails I whittle it down to the most enthusiastic with the most examples of previous work. Then we set about the project and I tell him "here's the mail addy's of two other guys who want to work on the project without compensation, here's what I want. How you do it is up to you." He says everything is fine and dandy and it starts off. He has questions and I go into amazing detail answering them. He keeps telling me work is progressing. The mails get farther and farther apart. I keep asking "are you sure you can do the project?" He always answers yes. After a while he stops mailing and finally admits he hasn't hardly done anything and all that time has been wasted. More than 100 emails and online conversations for absolutely nothing.

I'm sorry but after that experience I'm just a little bit jaded.

"Why is this a "curiosity" now? Seems like you changed your mind on your original offer or you would have answered my question eh?"

It's curiosity because everytime it looks like I'm getting close it gets snatched away. I'm not getting my heart set on it again just get burned again.

As for making it look exactly like WADED, hell I don't care as long as the buttons do the same things and are in the same general area. I'm not THAT picky. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

I mean, if you just took DEEPSEA exactly how it is now and added the WADED style GUI to it so that the buttons function identically (with no other features) to WADED, I would pay you $100 for it and you can keep the code.

It may seem to you that this is something I talk about here and there, but in reality I've spent countless hours talking to countless coders over the last 4 years and eventually it all comes back to nothing. Hell after all the time I spent trying to track down Matt Ayres, the cock sucker wouldn't even talk to me.

You talk to me about getting REAL. I've been REAL for more than four years now and it hasn't gotten me a damn thing. You bet I'm burnt out, bitter, and a little pissed off. I don't want to judge all coders by the actions of a few, but it's getting very hard.

So before I spent another few days going into mind-numbing detail as to how it'll function, I want an estimate. I'm not going to waste a bunch more of my time just for you to say you want $1000 to do it. I think I've shown that I'm hugely committed to the project, now it's time for you to fullfill your side of this potential transaction. I've shown you my leaky roof, now you have to tell me approximately how much it'll cost to put new shingles on it. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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Member of Team DEIM (http://www.teamdeim.com/)
Webmaster The DOOM Editing Resource (http://www.teamdeim.com/der/)

[Aliotroph?]

Hey Rellik. I was looking forward to that thing too. I love coding and I'd do it for you but I'm just not that good. It doesn't help that I don't know C++. If this still hasn't been delt with in a couple of years I might be able to pull it off. Deepteam looks like the kind of guy who could probably do it once he's decided to. It would probably work really well too. Good luck. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[deepteam]

4 years? Oh well - what you discovered is that if you want something done, you have to pay for it http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

For $100 I'll do the right side of Waded. The side that has Things, Lines, etc and ends at QUIT. Functionally, it will drive the standard DeePsea code. This will be in the copy of DeePsea registered to you.

Don't know what you mean by "GUI", that's too general a term. I don't want mindnumbing detail, that will cost you http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

The specs for $100 are duplicating the right side of Waded - exactly as done shown in the Waded shot on your page. NOTHING else.

All dialogs have CODE behind them - coding that too was/is the 160 hrs estimate. DeePsea actually duplicates most of that anyway. You can click on the info boxes displayed and change/browse textures only, plus flags button are even easier and more flexible than Waded.

It should be obvious to you now that this is not a duck simple job, or else those other guys would have done it in 4 years.

In summary, I won't do it ALL for 63 cents/hr http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif You can have the right side as a dialog. If you intended the $100 to cover ALL the GUI ... enuf on that one.

To start the $100 as I described, it is $50 down and $50 upon completion. For proof, I'll email you a shareware version showing that it works as described.

Or if you can give me 35 confirmed/paid orders then I'll also do the extra gui stuff. They have to wait a 1-2 months though (but I can ship them an immediate registered current version of DeePsea). Seems that ought to be easy to do.

I've been doing this since 1995, so credibility is the least of your worries http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

[Rellik_jmd]

Sounds great! I'll send you some email pretty quick rather than discuss all the nitty gritty here in the forum.

http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

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Member of Team DEIM (http://www.teamdeim.com/)
Webmaster The DOOM Editing Resource (http://www.teamdeim.com/der/)

[Aliotroph?]

Wow, how long did it take to think of all that business stuff? If you do this one deepteam, are you going to put a shareware version of it out for any of us to compare so we could buy either one?

------------------
"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[deepteam]

Wow, how long did it take to think of all that business stuff?
==========================================

About 2 seconds http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

are you going to put a shareware version
=========================================

Let's see when we get there. It takes a bit to hammer out the details.

[Aliotroph?]

Sounds about right. One day I'll have to do some editing again. All this talk of it is making me want to build something.

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"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark

[pickle_hammer]

seems to me deepsea would make a good gift to a doomer

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The Atomic Chicken Music Team - Making MIDI files for whatever project necessary. Contact me for further details. Members: pickle_hammer, Monkey, Fanatic

[Aliotroph?]

You mean a good gift to a mapper methinks.

------------------
"Killed Aliotroph?"
- obituary from Perfect Dark