32x32 Flats [Archive] - New Doom Forums

Doom_Dude

May 14th, 2003, 12:05 PM

Why would you want a 32 x 32 flat? If you take your 32 x 32 image and paste it 4 times onto a 64 x 64 graphic, then isn't that the same thing? Anyhow I don't think there is. I believe XWE will only recognise 64 x 64 as flats. I never used Wintex so I dunno about that prog. Good luck. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/wink.gif

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iori

May 14th, 2003, 12:22 PM

in wintex u can have 64x64 and 64x128, but NOT 128x64 (odd i know)

Gherkin

May 14th, 2003, 01:32 PM

The specs say the image MUST be 64x64 AND exist between F_START and F_END. Nothing else, no buts. Some (mega)wads lack these rules but still work, thats luck, dont go for that.
Â*

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Rellik_jmd

May 14th, 2003, 01:35 PM

Wouldn't it be great if we had 128x128 flats?

*dreams*

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XDelusion

May 14th, 2003, 03:07 PM

So Legacy can or can not do a 64x128 flat?

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Doom_Dude

May 14th, 2003, 03:34 PM

Agent Spork

May 14th, 2003, 03:45 PM

Actually.. I got a 64x128 flat to work..

MR_ROCKET

May 14th, 2003, 04:27 PM

yea 128x128 would rock!

no i dont think so SS even though f_sky /rsky can get treated like that but thats different..
i see no reason for 32x32 lol , although you can always 4 x your 32x texture to 64x64 and use it that way..
working with a 32x texture is gonna get pixelated unless you 4x it..

and no i dont mean run it over with a monster truck spork :P

Aliotroph?

May 14th, 2003, 04:33 PM

I'm waiting for the chance to interchange flats and textures freely. That would also be cool, but require a big engine overhaul.

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

MR_ROCKET

May 14th, 2003, 04:37 PM

oh i know , like gtkradiant or an editor like that , with stretch' and shift' that would be kick ass if gherkins editor could have something like that to shift the off sets and stuff..

Aliotroph?

May 14th, 2003, 04:41 PM

It would be cool if his editor had a 3D editing mode.

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

Doom_Dude

May 14th, 2003, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Actually.. I got a 64x128 flat to work..<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? What did you use to insert the graphic?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>although you can always 4 x your 32x texture to 64x64 and use it that way..<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I said. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>I'm waiting for the chance to interchange flats and textures freely. That would also be cool, but require a big engine overhaul.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be cool but you can just make a flat that matches any wall or make a wall to match the doom flat. I guess I should get on making the texture wad that fixes all that. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>It would be cool if his editor had a 3D editing mode.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't even think that's needed IMHO. For DooM, 3D mode is in your brain. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif

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Agent Spork

May 14th, 2003, 05:41 PM

DarkWolf

May 14th, 2003, 05:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>For DooM, 3D mode is in your brain. <hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's assuming that the majority of people have one.

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Doom_Dude

May 14th, 2003, 06:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Wintex<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that figures. The one doom editing proggy I always disliked. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>But that's assuming that the majority of people have one.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm27.gif

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MR_ROCKET

May 15th, 2003, 12:04 AM

haha , true about the 3d mode but it would be a nice feature , then you wouldnt have to go in game 3 billion times while building a map to check and make sure your vision is right 90% of the time ,and your brain can only picture what your doing for a few seconds then starts to fade into visions of titties and what not..

oh thats just me? oops http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Doom_Dude

May 15th, 2003, 05:47 AM

ROFL@visions of tities!!!!!! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm27.gif

That happens too often Mr_Rocket... http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm32.gif

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iori

May 15th, 2003, 09:05 AM

yah wintex can do it, hexen used them for water, lava and slime. Ive got two 64x128's in my wad. My question is: Why didnt id use those for the marble face flat thats separated into four??

Anyway - 128x128 would be awesome, but stuff like htat would have to be modified in the editors too, even if it was added to the engine.

Exl

May 15th, 2003, 10:40 AM

Flats are just lumps with the raw image data inside them, so why not just insert a 2048 byte raw image into a wad with XWE or something?

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Doom_Dude

May 15th, 2003, 11:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Flats are just lumps with the raw image data inside them, so why not just insert a 2048 byte raw image into a wad with XWE or something?<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmmmm. I'm gonna experiment with XWE and see if I can get a 64 x 128 flat working like Spork said he did. BUT what of the way the engine tiles the floors??????? Isn't that just gonna be a fuck up right there? Won't it just tile one 64 x 64 corner of the 64 x 128 flat?

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Tim

May 15th, 2003, 11:22 AM

Yeah, I don't know how a 64*128 flat would work. The Doom engine doesn't keep track of the dimensions of a flat (it's just a linear byte array), it just assumes it's square...

Also, ZDoom/GL supports large flats. I think ZDoom supports up to 256*256 and ZDoomGL supports as big as you want to go. I have a test map with a 2048*2048 flat in it. Supporting economy-sized flats in the GL renderer was pretty simple, too.

http://members.shaw.ca/timstump/images/bigflat_1.jpg (showing unscaled version and repeating scaled)
http://members.shaw.ca/timstump/images/bigflat_2.jpg (closeup of repeating scaled)

iori

May 15th, 2003, 02:22 PM

hmm though this is legacy and not zdoomgl i see what you mean. I think what were talking about here is variable flat sizes in the current engine.

Gah...64x128 ISpossible. I have done it, and again, it is possible.

Doom draws flats on a 64x64 grid from the top-left. That is presumably the only limit in the drawing, and not really a limit, but a guideline.

64x64 flat on 64x64 grid:
----
|ff|
|ff|
----
| |
| |
----
64x128 flat on a 64x64 grid:

----
|ff|
|ff|
----
|ff|
|ff|
----

All it does is draw the flat from the top and continues into the next 64x64 grid slot.
quite simple, eh? http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm1.gif

deepteam

May 15th, 2003, 05:35 PM

64x128 FLAT isn't really legit - it was a mistake by RAVEN. It works by accident since as Tim noted, it's assumed to be "square" and that's why the various utilities (and HEXEN) all show it correctly. It's still 64x64 though in terms of display.

I think any of the utils (DeePsea, Wintex, XWE) can insert "32x32" since that will just be considered "data" and inserted as is. However, none of the utils treat it as a FLAT.

SSNTails explained what he was doing - which is just varying the grid size - NOT hires flats. The more flexible way to do this is to do hires flats and then let them expand via linedef types to the full 2048 if desired. That's why ZDOOM and ZDOOMGL do. IOW, you can have your cake and eat it too.

His problem right now in Legacy is figuring out how to do hires for flats (you can't just squeeze the flat down to 64x64).

Doom_Dude

May 15th, 2003, 07:24 PM

Where did he explain what he was doing? http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif He only asked for a program to insert 32x32 flats.

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deepteam

May 15th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Oh, we were having an email discussion about this. I assumed Legacy users would know more than I did http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif

Doom_Dude

May 15th, 2003, 07:47 PM

That's not fair. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

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MR_ROCKET

May 15th, 2003, 10:14 PM

images in xwe , ouch i wouldnt try it..
xwe can do some wierd things to images somethings..

Doom_Dude

May 16th, 2003, 10:09 AM

Yeah I noticed that awhile ago. Anyhow I can't be arsed trying to get a 64 x 128 jobby to work when theres more important editing stuff to do and titties as well.. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/tongue.gif

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iori

May 16th, 2003, 10:13 AM

i dont know I've never used it. I stick to wintex. Hi res textures would be neat, but how much processing power would it take for the comp to do all the resizing required? I *hope* not too much, cause hi res would be cool for some things ( i still think the original doom textures are awesome). Anyways i hope we dont use those crappy jdoom hi res ones used in freedoom....those blow chunks!

Doom_Dude

May 16th, 2003, 06:19 PM

I agree with the comment that the original doom textures are cool. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/biggrin.gif I think a 128 x 128 flat or whatever shouldn't cause much slow down once it was loaded. Heh but who know? Anyways it would be cool to be able to make a 128 x 128 pentagram and set that in your floor rather than trying to make 4 seperate pieces that fit together.

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deepteam

May 17th, 2003, 08:43 AM

Increasing flat size (and not using it as hires) causes no slowdown at all. It's probably a bit faster since the number of times it has to make a fill pass is reduced.

Even if you make it hires (extra scaling code), you can't tell the difference on a relatively modern machine.

You can test the difference with ZDOOM, ZDOOMGL, JDOOM and I think VAVOOM (at least he was going to do this - haven't checked for a few months). I've been playing with some big flats in ZDOOM and you can do some neat things - like scaling them back and forth. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm12.gif

Doom_Dude

May 17th, 2003, 09:52 AM

Id love to make a huge tiled floor with different non-repetitive cracks throughout with some blood splatters and stuff.

Well one of these days I'll probably get to do that. Meanwhile it's mapping time!

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SSNTails

May 17th, 2003, 11:32 AM

Specs schmecks, Gherkin! http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif I'm coding 32x32 to 2048x2048 flat support into Legacy, and I need a way to test 32x32 flats.

deepteam

May 17th, 2003, 08:35 PM

I thought you had the raw format covered?

Anyway, all you have to do is write a simple program that strips the header from a 32x32 BMP. Then just insert that lump into the PWAD between the FF_START and FF_END markers.

Using DeePsea: press F7/Save Lump File to current level (doesn't care about content). That doesn't let you position the lump. To do this use the F7/PWAD Lump Fixing tool to put it in the right position.

If you still think this is a good idea, I'll add 32x32 in the next release since I had to get 11.76 with the automatic texture deletion stuff done.

Aliotroph?

May 17th, 2003, 10:22 PM

Wouldn't the simplest interface to add lumps to a wad be a drap and drop deal? As long as you knew where to position them you could do it really fast that way.

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"Once in a while a programmer really writes something he's proud of, a slick, elegant, blazingly fast routine that stands as a benchmark against which other code will be judged by. However, this is not the case with TED's fill routine. This slow, stupid algorithm will casually fill one plane of data in a painfully creeping manner. Press ESC when it gets confused." - John Romero on TED (Tile EDitor)

Aliotroph?.postCount++;

deepteam

May 18th, 2003, 09:42 AM

The simplest interface is to NOT let one choose the position http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif Many things don't care.

I actually told him the wrong thing anyway. He can import the raw stripped BMP lump directly since it's not going to be a recognized format (I was thinking of the actual BMP in the earlier post).

Drag and drop can be good and it can be a PIA. It always depends on the final goal. There is no single way that always works better than all the rest covering all situations.

Another issue is purely technical - there's the GUI, the code interface to the GUI and then the actual code that to do the job.

The API's don't always cooperate. Getting the job done is the most important and then later the API can be changed if it turns out to be a significant problem. There are some areas I intend to change - it's just not that easy to do.

IOW, some things can't be done in some API's, so you switch to a different one that is way more complicated or code it all yourself.

In this particular case, he can't take a raw BMP, since the import will recognize it as a graphic and convert it to one of the selected formats (32x32 flat is not yet included). That's why I suggested stripping the header.

IOW the other problem in this specific example is that one still has to decide exactly what to do with the inserted data in terms of conversion.

Doom_Dude

May 28th, 2003, 07:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade>Specs schmecks, Gherkin! I'm coding 32x32 to 2048x2048 flat support into Legacy, and I need a way to test 32x32 flats.<hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's it going with the 32x32 testing?

I kinda made this wad with a 32x32 flat.......

Doubt you need it now.

/me wanders off

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