New Doom -- The Conflict With Sin

[Zack]

One note: Sin is the goat-dude you see on all those big images on MAP30 of Doom2, TNT and Plutonia. His name is Sin, hence the term 'Icon of Sin.' My theory is that because his brain is like a demon-vat itself, Doom1 e2m7 is called Spawning Vats for one reason...an icon of Sin was there too, and you missed it. But that's not the main point I'm getting at. This temporary fanfic, potential Newdoom plot, is. Read it, and tell me what you think! Please, good comments only--typing this kind of thing on a Dreamcast is a lot of time :)

The end of Final Doom:

Sin left his evil marks across three entire planets, Phobos, Deimos, and Earth. You don't know much about Sin, except for his face, which he recreated on the face of every demon that spurted through his four evil vats, one placed on the misplaced moon Deimos, which you came so close to finding out (E2M7) but never did, two on the brim of Earth (MAP30 Doom2/TNT), and one at the core of Hell itself (Plutonia), having found your way there via UAC's experimental portals.

You destroyed the last of the portals on this side, and UAC destroyed the Gates and portals on Earth's side. Unfortunately, UAC didn't care less about you, as they have just left absolutely no way for you to return home. After saving the solar system numerous times, this is how you get treated!? Deja vu: where's that big fat reward and ticket home!!

The beginning of new Doom:

After each and every creation of Sin, the demons, were swallowed up into an adimensional void inside the final destructed portal, Sin's fourth and ultimate icon is nothing but charred peices of rock and stone, and crumbles to the ground. And his threatening, reversed voice can be heard echoing throughout Hell: "This game is not over. I am coming."

The newly collapsed icon left open a huge window, overlooking a vast panorama of millions of miles of true Hell. You gape, mouth wide open as you stare over the edge. Sin rasps a laugh, and he sends an image into your eyes for a split second. An image of Sin himself. His goat head is as big as his icons depicted. And his enormous, hideous body is at least half the size of the Tower of Babel on Deimos, where you faced the cyberdemon for the first time. Suddenly, that cyberdemon didn't seem so tough anymore.

The image, even so shortly lasting, is enough to shock you. Your pulse doubles and your breath catches in your throat as you slip and stumble over the edge of Hell's window. It's a long fall.

"It's happening all over again:"

You slowly open your eyes. The impact would have killed you, but you seem to be okay. You notice a sticky blue liquid on the closed-in walls, the liquid of a soul sphere, and realize the one that just exploded all over you as you landed on it saved your life.

You are in a dark, empty closet. Your backpack must have fallen off of you while you fell, and your only weapon is your bare fist. You slam the fist through the door and open it with the knob on the other side. You step out of the closet and into a home. A demon's house, built entirely of human bones. You have fallen into the Suburbs of Hell. The room reeks of human blood.

You look around and see a creature. It looks like a cyberdemons child--shorter and covered more in some sort of fur than metal. It's rocket launcher was not fully developed, but its horns looked menacing enough. The demon child was at first happily knawing at what might have been a man's heart on the floor. Only now, it is staring at you, rasping and snorting. The heart was just an appetizer.

And so new Doom begins. Tell me what you think of this opening storyline! I have a mid-game and closing storyline too, but I think I'll save it. :) (Part of it goes into detail about Hell's history and creation! Very cool.)

--Zack

This post was edited but you didn't miss anything, don't worry! I just felt like fixing a few typos :)


[This message has been edited by Zack (edited 06-08-2000).]

[utopia]

Bravo! http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/biggrin.gif




------------------
-Matt 'utopia' Blessing-
News Administrator:
http://www.newdoom.com

[DraX]

WooHoo.. looks like we may need to set up a site here for that kind of stuff;-)

Opinions?

[Demon]

I really like it man!
Keep it up!

[Phoebus]

Yeap!
In fact, we've got plans for a Doom Mythos hosted site, which is our vision of a Necronomicon for Doom, featuring fan- and staff-created stories and art that help perpetuate Doom literary possibilities! If you're interested in contributing, please email us at mailto:mythos@newdoom.commythos@newdoom.com</A> !

------------------
William Mull
NEWDOOM.com (http://NEWDOOM.com)
VoyagerEliteForce.com (http://VoyagerEliteForce.com)
RuneNews.com (http://RuneNews.com)
Soldier-of-Fortune.com (http://Soldier-of-Fortune.com)
Raven-Games.com (http://Raven-Games.com)
HereticII.com (http://HereticII.com)
HeXenWorld.NET (http://HeXenWorld.NET)
More to come!

[Zack]

Thanx guys! :)

Lemme tell ya...it's really creepy to have finished writing that post, gone to bed, gotten up, taken a shower and then checked the message board, less than 8 hours later, to find that it made newdoom.com headlines.

Like...woah! :)

Mythos sounds to be real kewl, guys. It surprised me that, even now, there have only been very few Doom fanfics out there. In other communities, such as that of Sonic the Hedgehog, there are literally hundreds of fanfics!! Let's hope NewDoom will inspire more for the Doom community.

Of course, Sonic wouldn't have so many fans if it weren't for four spin-off animated series and several still-being-published comic book series...heh. Methinks Doom could use a TV show or movie too, muhahaha :)

--Zack


[This message has been edited by Zack (edited 06-09-2000).]

[King_Ralph]

Nice stuff, I wish I was clever enough to come up with something like that....

[Zack]

There's no reason you can't do it too, Ralph :)

Writing Doom fiction is really easy. Just come up with an idea, and once you begin writing, it's hard to stop!

Just be sure to save often if possible...ugh...memories.

--Zack

[CRETE]

Dude.
Demons are filthy savage animals.
They dont have houses no matter which way you look at it. I could see maybe a demon's den or lair but i can't imagine a den with a closet.
Secondly, cyberdemons are born with rocket launchers for arms? You ever heard of a strogg, son? They ain't even born with biomechanics and that's what their race is!

[Zack]

This is Hell, not Stroggos, man. The Cyberdemon developes hormones that stimulate its metallic growth when it is an infant.

Since when are Strogg not born biomechanically?

As for the closet thing, you are right. Somebody finally found a flaw =) ...For some reason when I was thinking Hell, I was thinking my house. I almost had the cyberdemon eating a human heart at the kitchen table to the right of the TV room! So consider yourself lucky :)

Some might say it's ironic that I would compare my family to that of demons and our house to Hell. I say, you haven't been to my house :)

--Zack

[twisted]

I can definitely understand now why we did a post about your story! It was extremely creative and well thought out. However, it seemed a tad corny with the closet and human heart thing http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/smile.gif Other than that, I do hope we will see your work again, maybe even on our future Doom Mythos site. Keep up the great work, Zack!

-twisted


------------------
Patrick 'twisted' Hardy
News Updates & Forums Moderator
http://www.newdoom.com

[Zack]

Thankee twisted :)

Everyone here has truely inspired me to write a bit more...after dwelling in the Sonic community I felt like I was good for nothing! And you can't write fanfics in the QBasic community...unless it's one of those things about being sucked into QBasic and a digital Bill Gates tries to kill you with a knife with the Windows logo on it, like that dream I had when I ....uhm, never mind...

--Zack

[JoeCosman]

Just read the story. Pretty nice. of course,you forget about the balance of power. when predators run out of prey, they starve. when prey runs out of predators, they overpopulate and exhaust resources and starve, making the outcome the same. but how it is reached is the entertaining part. there has to be a harvest or a hunt, or else there is no conflict.

it's late, so some of this might not make any sense anyway, but lets get ethereal for a bit:


what if hell and heaven are universal forces that can reshape and create reality. they are in a constant state of war, on opposite sides of space and time.
the calm spot, where the forces are equal, create this reality, the one we live in.

when one force pulls too much, it can change the environments and inhabitants. these forces can be controlled and moved in one way or the other. thoughts and actions can shift the balance of power. some people get maddened by the power and desire more, increasing the offset. sin succeeded in this, creating a reality that is the physical representation of hell.

the more dark hearts that reside in our reality shift the balance towards gloomier ends. sin's evil has taken root in space and formed his version of hell. it is spreading fast, using the powers of evil thoughts to fuel its invasion into our reality.
--

Doom glanced down at the scars on his arms, then back at the broken seal. There wasnt any way home.

his hand limply slapped another cartridge into the plasma gun. it echoed off the stone, an answer to the taunts and threats of his adversaries.

the man walked through the window, ignoring the small thought that clawed at him...

[CRETE]

You just don't get it do you?
Doom isn't about heaven and hell. The plot reveolves around an alien invasion. The opposing forces are named demons and imps due to their similarities to our view of mythical monsters and religious entities.
Sure, the planet that the invaders come from may resemble what some think hell would look like but we seem to have fallen into a habit of calling it hell.

[King_Ralph]

N0 JIM!!!!
I remember is saying at the end of the third episode 'now hell plays fair and gives you a portal to earth' ok, it was something like that and it said something about you falling to hell at the end of the second episode.
THE THIRD EPISODE WAS SET IN HELL!!!
I know that for sure!!
GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!
ROOOOOAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/mad.gif

Ok, I'll calm down now...

[Zack]

King_Ralph is telling the truth. The plot for Doom, in summary, goes as follows:

The United Aerospace Corporation found strange 'Gates' on Mars' moons Phobos and Deimos. The gates were portals and also created artificial gravity almost equal to that of Earth's. The UAC began exploring with the Gates and learned how to walk though them and find themselves on the other moon.

Soon, however, strange things began to happen like exploding bodies and men going mad after having gone through the gates. Some went in one and were never even seen again. Then Deimos disappeared from the sky! Space marines, including you, were sent to Phobos to check things out. They all went ahead of you and you can hear them all dying over the radio. They left you only with a pistol as you go in looking for them, and that's how Doom began.

At the end of Episode One: Knee-Deep in the Dead, you walk through the first gate, the strange platform with Sin's face etched on it at the top of the stairs on Phobos Anomaly. (Probably would've been called Phobos Gate if they would have made up their minds.) Stepping through the gate takes you right to lost Deimos base, as well as stripping you of your weapons (and, in the Doom books, your clothes). Episode 2: The Shores of Hell, begins at Deimos Anomoly.

At the end of episode 2, you kill your first cyberdemon. The episode 2 credits include something like this: "...you peer over the edge and don't believe what you see. Deimos is floating over Hell itself! You've never heard of anybody escaping Hell before..." You climb over the edge of Deimos and jump down to Hell. Somehow. And so Episode 3, Inferno, begins.

After killing the Spider Mastermind, who was at the moment supposedly in charge of the entire invasion, and ending episode 3, "...A hidden gate opens and you enter. You have proven too tough for Hell to contain, and at last Hell plays fair, for you emerge to see the green feilds of Earth! ..." Unfortunately, the aliens/demons have already attacked Earth as you see a huge city smoking and flaming, and the mysterious bunny's head on a stick. Maybe Adrian or Kevin choked on a peice of Trix cereal and decided to get revenge :)

At the end of Episode 4, you kill yet another Spider and leave the city, carrying your beloved rabbit, Daisy. God rest his soul.

In Doom II you seek through a demon-infested starport to find a way and launch every human on the planet into space for safety. (End of MAP11) You are the only man left on the planet, with millions of aliens ready to rip you apart. You don't care, as you are glad you have just saved the human race. But instead you get a message from Space Control saying they found the source of the invasion, in your home city not far off.

Most people believe that the entire Doom II takes place on Earth but in fact it does not. (End of MAP20) You are in the center of your home city and meet yet another Gate the aliens set from Hell. You can't find a way to close it but perhaps there is a switch on the other side. And the text says, "Who cares if you've got to go through Hell to get to it?"

It never goes into explanation, but as far as I can tell, the simple (yeah right) task of destroying the Icon of Sin weakens and destroys the Gate that the aliens were invading through once more. You are also somehow set back on Earth or sent to the starport with the rest of the human race in space. But that's Doom II, the plot was worse than Doom 1.

Final Doom has a bit of a plot too, but I only described the plots for Doom 1&2 to prove that you indeed do travel through Hell, twice! Blood-red skies are often a dead give away, too :)

--Zack


[This message has been edited by Zack (edited 06-10-2000).]

[Phoebus]

Yes, with all due respect ...
This is DOOM we're talking about; this ain't about no damn Quake http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/wink.gif
Doom's all about hell -- going down to HELL, HELL on Earth. Demons of all sorts. http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/wink.gif

Man, I'm so glad id is finally getting away from that abhorent Quake franchise (although if they'd done a TRUE sequel to the first Quake, that would have been really cool... but they didn't.), and getting back to their ROOTS! http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
William Mull
NEWDOOM.com (http://NEWDOOM.com)
VoyagerEliteForce.com (http://VoyagerEliteForce.com)
RuneNews.com (http://RuneNews.com)
Soldier-of-Fortune.com (http://Soldier-of-Fortune.com)
Raven-Games.com (http://Raven-Games.com)
HereticII.com (http://HereticII.com)
HeXenWorld.NET (http://HeXenWorld.NET)
More to come!

[King_Ralph]

Where is crete?
Come back here and say your sorry!!!!
http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/mad.gif

And thank you zack for expanding what I was saying. http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/wink.gif

[utopia]

Zack - don't listen to them http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/biggrin.gif The closet and human heart thing was great!

I wish id Software would've made a true sequal to Quake I. . .those monsters were as scary as DOOM's.



------------------
-Matt 'utopia' Blessing-
News Administrator:
http://www.newdoom.com

[Zack]

Hey, why not? New doom could be "Doom meets Quake" or something like that. I always wanted to kick that dude Quake's arse!!

Anyway, no, it was very late when I typed up that story and was just going through it really fast and practically didn't care, so I'm gonna type a better one up and send it to Mythos, anyway :)

--Zack

classic grasses massive passive...aww they removed the glitch :D

[This message has been edited by Zack (edited 06-11-2000).]

[DainKinkaide]

Well, wmull, considering id's roots are Wolfenstein 3-D and Commander Keen, I really don't think they're going back that far...

Of course, an update to either of those would be cool.

------------------
-Dain Kinkaide of Jakkal Software (http://dainkinkaide.tripod.com)

[Phoebus]

Of course, but like I stated before, although most of us 'discovered' PC gaming via Wolfenstein 3D, even that remarkable and ground-breaking game didn't have the life-altering effect on us that Doom did.

There's a Return to Wolfenstein underway from the former Xatrix guys using the Q3A engine. Although it's getting a very positive response, and I'm sure I'll play it when it comes out, I'm honestly not abating my breath over it as I obviously am for the New Doom!
And an update to the Commander Keen series would be fun as well, but probably only as a novelty . . .

------------------
William Mull
NEWDOOM.com (http://NEWDOOM.com)
VoyagerEliteForce.com (http://VoyagerEliteForce.com)
RuneNews.com (http://RuneNews.com)
Soldier-of-Fortune.com (http://Soldier-of-Fortune.com)
Raven-Games.com (http://Raven-Games.com)
HereticII.com (http://HereticII.com)
HeXenWorld.NET (http://HeXenWorld.NET)
More to come!

[Zack]

id's roots go farther than that.

In '89 or '90, I had this Apple IIe game that I really liked. It was the original Dangerous Dave by John Romero (NOT included in the id Anthology) when he was working at Softdisk. On the very last level, 10, were the big, mysterious letters "ID" in the middle. Interesting, eh? :) Especially since id was founded on Feb 1, 1991.

If you are a true id fan, a very interesting package is the id Anthology, which includes many of their creations at Softdisk and all their id games, full versions, up to and including Quake 1. There are also some mac games, and included in the pack are a lot of accesories and merchandise, like the Doom comic book and a pewter Cyberdemon!
The coolest thing in this package is the Book of id, which goes into detail on personal stories and the entire history. Remember Kevin Cloud in his recent interview, telling about the move from the north to the big black cube in Mesquite? Even that is in this book! I think it was written by Carmack...I'm beginning to recognize his text from others' heheh...

As for the price, if you are interested, I got it at Microcenter in Aug, 1997 for $120, but I'm sure the price has gone down considerably.

I think anything new for Commander Keen is not a good idea, because there is no popular genre like those games today, even if it were in first person 3D. It just wouldn't be as popular.

--Zack

[Phoebus]

Yes, I'm a proud owner of the id Anthology, which was given to me by a friend who worked for GTInteractive at the time. http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/smile.gif
The book alone is worth the price! http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
William Mull
NEWDOOM.com (http://NEWDOOM.com)
VoyagerEliteForce.com (http://VoyagerEliteForce.com)
RuneNews.com (http://RuneNews.com)
Soldier-of-Fortune.com (http://Soldier-of-Fortune.com)
Raven-Games.com (http://Raven-Games.com)
HereticII.com (http://HereticII.com)
HeXenWorld.NET (http://HeXenWorld.NET)
More to come!

[JoeCosman]

I remember seeing many books in the bookstores that were based on Doom. they could all be used to create "plot" for the new game. but Doom wasnt as much about plot as it was about living in the moment.

Get this health, sidestep this imp BLAM! jump over this monster,BLAM, switch to the rocket launcher....

I was a big big big fan of Doom; and when Quake came out and I played that (and kind of liked it). then Quake2 came out and it was good. kind of even had a little plot, too, but still along the lines of Doom, which was to 'Save the world from monsters - again'.

dont get me wrong, I did have fun playing those games, but same ol' isnt going to cut it any more. Tributes to games, like YPOD are entertaining and fun simply because it reminds you of the times you had playing the original. "Whoa. I can remember the first time I went down this corridor..... scared the bajeesus outta me."

sometimes I feel like trying a TC for a favourite game, using the newer technology.
but I catch myself. why dont I invest all that energy into making something all my own?

sometimes when I look at the new game engines I say,"wow, I bet if we made doom now, it would totally Kick ass" at which point, a coworker would look back at me and say, "it would be the same, just prettier".. and vice versa.

the imagining is always more exciting than actually seeing it implemented. sometimes ideas good on paper look really bad when put to screen.


Everything Id has produced has been along the same lines, with a minor nod to quake2.
they make an audio/visual smorgasboard with nothing intellectual. this seems to reminds me of a nursery room with all the brightly coloured objects and bells and noisemakers.

being a graphic artist, sometimes I design characters that have no plot. their only function is to look cool. they seem to work well when modeled and animated, and they have some nice colours, but what was the point? I want my designs to be justified. there should be a reason that this character is in existence, and why it looks like that. why do I encounter this creature in this particular game or anmation? this element seemes to be missing from doom and quake, or was really loosely explained.
"anything can happen in Hell. it all came out of hell."
but that's okay, because we're living in the moment. no plot, just explosions.

with games like system shock, you think and work through the minds of the characters that are in the game. you get a feel of what the overall purpose is on the game. if the design is superb, you might even feel for the characters IN the game, and you look forward to playing it the next time. what happens next? is Jane going to be alive when I find her on level 5? your mind instinctually craves information. it needs progression, even if it is just to see the next line of scrolling text after a level finish.

what's the main thing you do in doom when you encounter a bunch of Baddies? well for starters, you load up the shotgun.

I'm not advocating that all first person shooters start resembling RPGs and have plot and character and stats. extra features really turn me off on a game. I do require that it be entertaining enough to hook me, provide me with some type of story that makes my brain crave what's next, and it needs to be pretty, of course!

Id seems to have the last part of the formula down pat.

so, anything they come up with next might be good, just dont call it Doom.

[Zack]

I wish id Software would've made a true sequal to Quake I. . .those monsters were as scary as DOOM's.

Quake's plot was actually very similar to Doom's plot. It might be neat if some of Quake 1's enemies were implemented into the new Doom. Or maybe Quake himself.

[Zack]

Woohoo! Classic olde topic update!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, serif">quote:</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade><font face="Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, serif" size="2">And an update to the Commander Keen series would be fun as well, but probably only as a novelty . . .</font><hr width="100%" size="1" noshade></BLOCKQUOTE>

A new Commander Keen game, as we all probably know, was released on Game Boy Color in celebration of its 10th anniversary =)

[Ninja of doom]

The topic should be on the main page now.
Great plot zack. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smilies/cwm4.gif
Who said shoot-em ups were pointless?
This puts the icing on the cake.

------------------
---I am the Ninja from hell. Fear me or die.---
http://www.volny.cz/rayer/hry/doombest/anims/fireman.gif

[logjon2]

Crete, you stupid fuck, you just don't get it do you? The third episode IS set in hell, and nobody gives a shit what the hell you have to say even if it isn't. I know this is a little late, but I haven't been here forever.

BTW, pretty good plot,

[Black_Icon]

Don't get me wrong... But I pretty much agree with JoeCosman. Doom isn't exactly a story-orientated game. The only reason for any "story line" was to give it some sort of substance.

I thought your story was pretty cool Zack although I don't necessarily agree with all of it. I was always under the impression that the demons (being somewhat intelligent) advanced themselves by using the man made technologies they found around them. Just like we as a people, they resorted to their environment for their weapons, which happened to be the man made starbases. I cannot even fathom a CyberDemon having a rocket launcher in hell. I do not agree with any idea that an Arachnotron is born with metallic legs and a plasma rifle. That seems stupid. I think they simply 'adapted'. And it makes sense.

If anyone knows anything about Dante's Inferno, they would have a (or so believed) customary view of what hell is believed to look like. In a way I agree with Crete as well. I can't allow you people to rip on him for expressing his opinion. The Doom guy believed those places to be hell. If you want to get really technical there is no way a human being could go into hell and survive. I don't care if it was the entire human population armed with BFGs. Although it is said to be hell, that does not necessarily mean it is definitely hell. Shit, people actually believe living on earth as we are is hell... So what can I say?

This is all way too technical for Doom though. It's not worth arguing about. Doom is Doom. It's not exactly philosophy or an ideal vision of what hell looks like. I think the realms that were believed to be hell were simply 'in the void' kind of things. How can you kill something in Hell? Maybe you could kill something that was halfway between earth and hell, but not in hell.

Again cheers to you Zack. It was very thoughtful and creative. And your spawning vats idea was very well thought out. I think you could have been on to something... : )
I'd like to hear more.... Maybe I'll post my own story on here sometime. I'd expect the same amount of criticism as you have received. Doom on....

Black Icon

[Zack]

Thanks Black Icon. You have some pretty good points there, but there are a couple things I'd like to comment on. The first is regarding your "Doom is just Doom" statement:

Do you know how strict to the Star Trek universe a Trekkie tries to be? I'm not one myself but I'm using ST as an example: A really big fan would watch every episode and remember every bit of information supplied about the universe around the characters. He reads every book and does the same thing. He buy Klingon/English dictionaries, and posts on newsgroups about the philosophies of the show and the latest new episode. He's quick to spot the tiniest plot hole. If Kirk says "No thanks I don't smoke" in episode 6 and then accepts a cigarette in episode 50, it's a big deal--until an explanation can be derived by either the writers or the fans.

I happen to be a huge Matrix fan. I've watched the movie over and over again, learning new things each time about the "Real World" that we are not a part of, mentally. The makers did an excellent job, as far as I can tell, of hiding any continuity errors. If something does come up that is not explained, I'll make up a good explanation.

My point: This is all fiction. So is Doom. I observe what I can in Doom just like in the Matrix, and I learn new things based on any official documentation, graphics and sounds. I strive to learn the facts about the Doom Universe, and any indescriptive situations and any plot holes must have an explanation. Unfortunately, Doom is full of them because of its lack of a storyline. And I'm not the only one trying to explain Doom anomalies. Others in these forums, like yourself and like CRETE, have come up with your own explanations that each suit yourselves the way that you best prefer. Nobody discussed an official plot for Doom, we all came to believe our own things, our own personal religions based on the universe inside the game. Some of us like to merge the plots between Doom and Quake and other games, making them all have taken place in one world (Like the Generations mod).

But then arguments like these in this thread start up, because someone disagrees with someone else's own personal Doom 'religion.' (I call it that because it's what you believe. It's in no way as strong as a real-life religion, I should hope.) I sometimes see someone's arguments that don't actually fit in with what little plot Doom was given, such as CRETE saying it was all science fiction and no mythology, no Hell. My way is that since Doom says it is Hell, then it is Hell. Narration said it--not the marine. The Matrix takes place somewhere around the dawn of the 23rd century, because Morpheus said so. Star Trek's teleporters aren't teleporters, but "Transporters," because they say so. So why can't that surface resting evilly beneath the hovering moon of Deimos be Hell?

(Just a side note: the Doom novels take on such a twisted plot that is so tremendously different than that in the videogame, although it can be reasonable, but I choose not to accept that universe because of its contradictions and the fact that its universe is too uncomfortable for me. Einstein's theory of Relativity is real, and every time the marines travel to a far-off planet, he loses centuries of Earth time. Try to think of a happy ending for that!)

That leads to my second comment. I don't know if you intended to or not, but the way you spoke of Hell made it seem like you were basing it on facts. Hell is all based on religious beleifs, you see. That means that what it is really like is anybody's guess. Right, the Bible says this or that about Hell, so why can't it be true? Because we're talking about the universe in Doom, not in the Bible. One is a story, one is in real life. I don't go around preaching to people that we are trapped in a dream world and The One is going to rescue us from being enslaved by AI. That's just a movie (soon to be a trilogy).

I'm not saying you can't do this, but it just seems irrelevant to me that you are trying to tell us Doomers what Hell is really supposed to be like, and to contradict the storyline--no matter how weak it is--in Doom. For all we know, it is all just science fiction and no mythology is involved in Doom whatsoever. My explanation? I sometimes like to believe that, in Doom and in Doom alone, Hell is not a realm or another dimension or the core of Earth, but another planet, off in distant space somewhere. The aliens invade using Gate technology (where it came from nobody knows) to warp from "Planet Hell" to the moons of Mars and, later on, Earth. Their planet and the life on it is just so demonic and Satanic to us, that it is called Hell.

I might say more but the bell just rang. Cya. Hope to hear your opinion on this. http://forums.newdoom.com/UBB/smile.gif