Hello id software > Entity : monster_random

[Doom_Dude]

For those of you who know squat about game editing. I will try to explain.

1) Map designer boots up editor (Worldcraft, Qoole, QERadiant, etc........)
2) Map designer builds a map. ( rooms, doors, stairs, lifts, etc........)
3) Map person then places the monsters, triggers, sprites, weapons, etc...... These things are called entities to the map builder. Some of them, like the monsters and sprites are visible in the game. As if you never noticed! Yet some entities are totally invisible, like triggers. You walk through a invisible trigger and boom a door suddenly opens to your left and critters spill out!

I explained that so you all would know what the hell I'm talking about. Read on.

id software I have a idea! I want a monster_random entity in the New Doom. I was thinkin' that a set of 3 to 4 of these things in a map could make for some different monster encounters. Each entity would have to be set to spawn a certain type of enemy, because a cyberdemon spawning in a little hall wouldn't work well. I was thinking if a trigger was to target each entity and cause them to be either on or off, then that might work. The entities set by the game engine to off would spawn no monsters while the ones set to on would spawn monsters.

If my idea is sound and not flaky then a player who replays a level will find a change in some of the monster placements. Yeah, the monster_random thing would only be set off at the beginning of the map and not afterwords.

That be the best I can explain it. Not exactly something thats easy to explain. I tried but is it any good?

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 11-30-2000).]

[CRETE]

Is that something like in Rougue Spear when you do the same level and the guys are in different places but they only have twosets of places so you know where they're gonna be anyway cuz you've already gone through the map twice?

-My Power Be Upon You

[Doom_Dude]

No, no, nope! It should be more random than that and only apply to certain monsters in the map. With a map of say 33 monsters, several or more would be random. The random thing might give you seven outta seven monsters or four outta seven. Anyhow the player would be more cautious after encountering a baron in a hall, where the baron wasn't there the last time he played the level. It just be somethin' that would make things a little different. With the addition of patrolling monsters, this could make for some more interesting play.

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 11-30-2000).]

[CRETE]

Why only some?
Why not all?

-My Power Be Upon You

[Doom_Dude]

Because some encounters you want to be set. It would be stupid if a monster that was supposed to be guarding a bunch a gear, suddenly not be there! You gotta have some set encounters, obviously!

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 11-30-2000).]

[CRETE]

I think THOSE should be the minority.
Everything else should be randomly placed.

-My Power Be Upon You

[King_Ralph]

Personally, I don't like the idea.
Please don't kill me.

[Doom_Dude]

But King_Ralph, why? A thumbs down and no reason? Hell, no one is a wantin' ta kill ya. I thought you wanted the New Doom to be more challenging.

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 11-30-2000).]

[King_Ralph]

Sorry, you're right I can't disagree without a reason.
Ok, so the reason is...when I've played the game several times through, I want to know what all the enemies are in the level. In resident evil 3 the guns changed when started the game again and its just not right as things have to even the next time you play it.
OH but one thing I wouldn't mind is for depending on what difficulty you play on you get harder enemies. I remember that in certain places of final doom.

[Doom_Dude]

But, man, I don't wan't da guns to change either! That would be too screwy. I just thought that if some monsters were in different placements, during replay (like you seem to enjoy), then it would help keep the gameplay fresh. Non~repeatitive(typo ?) ,so to speak. Are you saying that you want to learn the game like the back of your hand, givin' you the power to destroy everything without any surprises? But King_Ralph that sounds boring to me.

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 11-30-2000).]

[King_Ralph]

But what if it's harder the next time because of the enemy happened to change to a harder one? It would be unfair. It is a good idea though and it may well work...perhaps...

[JoeCosman]

on most shooters, random enemies just mean variety, not really difficulty.

I liked the Nightmare spawning in Doom. it kept you on your toes, especially if you already knew the level.

perhaps random enemies could be the Mix-And-Match style, as used in Soldier Of Fortune.
so the difficulty would be the same, but the shape would be different. heck, paganistic hell seems to have a formula for any type of monster:

wings, horns, hooves, teeth. just change the size and colour.

[Toady]

I do not like this idea, personally. Enemy should be placed carefully, not randomly, in the maps to get the most out of their specific attributes.

I would suggest a system where the level designer specifies a % chance for whether the monster should appear or not each time the level is played, with different percentage for different skill levels, of course; much like the "appears in skill levels..." flags in current FPS, only with the added randomness factor.

E.g., the designer specifies a demon hid in the shadows as having a 25% chance of appearing in Easy skill, 50% in Normal, and 75% in Hard.

This would mean that the player never knows where the enemy will be found, yet allow the level designer to place the enemy where it's most effective.

The randomness could be made an option for those players who prefer to know where the enemy hides when replaying.

[Doom_Dude]

You know Toady, that is a pretty damn fine modification of my idea. I like it. I know that enemy placement is important, because from a level designers viewpoint, I have done a ton of enemy placements and understand their importance. I like your percentage idea and that is somethin that could make the game replayable.

To King_Ralph: The monsters wouldn't change!! What i am tryin' to say is that a imp placed in a hallway, is there during one play~through of the game. The next time you play, that imp might be there or not depending on if the game engine puts one there. The monster change thing would absolutely not work well, for obvious reasons. We don't need a Cyberdemon appearing where a imp was last time you played the level.

There is a thing called balance in level design. All things like weapons, monsters, power~ups, health, ammo, etc....., need to be properly placed. Too much ammo in a level and BOOM, the level is too easy. Not enough health and the level can become impossible. We all know this, especially the map maker. The whole balance of a level would go out the window if you got a extra Cyberdemon, where a imp was standing last time ya played.

This random thing would not apply to every monster in the level! That would be insane and no one on the planet would wanna play the game. It would suck the big one! A low percentage of monsters would be geared to the random thing. It is an idea to enhance gameplay.

Also, once you load the level the first time, the engine would randomise the random monsters . You save the level, okay. Then when you boot up your saved game all the randomness info is remembered. The random monsters only change from the initial load of the level and not at any other time.

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.


[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 11-30-2000).]

[CheapTrick]

I used too make some Doom maps, and cause of
Counter Strike i have loaded up QuArK
And WorldCraft to do som reemakes
of my oldies.
And i must say... that was a great idea!.
(The ramdom entity spawn and the option too have multioptions on the triggers off em...)
So u stil can generate the same situation in
some of the places, (ex. same type guards)
doing the samt thing then have randomizing
on the rest.
It would add to the...
"i wanna play the game\level again&again".

Even be able too control the random spawning potition ex. set 5 targets and these are the same spawn, then u set them to spawn_range monster nr1-->nr5.(u choose)
Then u can enter a room and the monster
is not the same and it is not behind the
barrel but this time it is behind the desk.

Then u could alsoe set more spawns in the same
place and use triggers to generate som wild
and cool shoot outs.

Or? did that kill the "load saved game"
cause i die'd and have too try that again.


8) )

[Doom_Dude]

Thanx, I think http://www.newdoom.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Ummm, I'm pretty sure Unreal had something like this, because when My bro and I played through the game, when it first came out, we had monsters in different areas. Oh, and we both played it on the same skill level.. I remember, that many times he had Skarrg (or whatever you call those critters) in different areas than me. It wasn't due to "patrolling" either......honest!

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Vilecore Is Coming! (http://www.newdoom.com/themegawad/) The only Good ArchVile is a DEAD Archvile.
http://www.newdoom.com/themegawad/sig/brick2.jpg
It's A DooM II, 32 level, Megawad Jobby! Monsters Included!!

[Zack]

Yuck. I like patrolling a whole lot better. Random spawn spots is just stupid. Random respawn times, however, aren't too bad...you never know when that dead demon will come back to life in Nightmare! skill!!

[Doom_Dude]

Patrolling is good, but the monsters need to be more sneaky. This time around, you follow a patrolling monster and it goes around a corner. You follow and once you get to where you last say the beast.....it's gone! It's set up an ambush or switchbacked on you.....

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Vilecore Is Coming! (http://www.newdoom.com/themegawad/) The only Good ArchVile is a DEAD Archvile.
http://www.newdoom.com/themegawad/sig/brick2.jpg
It's A DooM II, 32 level, Megawad Jobby! Monsters Included!!