Monsters

[CRETE]

I think that the original Doom monsters are still some of the best designed characters for their time. I mean, we all got used to the awesome demons and zombies of Doom II and then what do we get with Quake? Shamblers?! What the F*** is that? I wanna feel a warm liquid trickling down my leg when i get ambushed, I dont want a polar bear with no eyes!
It is the age of the Cyberdemon. Let's all do are part to make these new enemies worth brutally mangling.

[Zack]

Whaa?? You enjoy the trickle of urine running down your pant leg? Okay...

I'm not alone after all!

heheh j/k

--Zack

[Steven]

I want all the old characters in the new doom!!!

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-Steve

[King_Ralph]

I want all the best enemies from doom aswell as some new ones.
I want a mixture of huge, small, slow, fast, but the one thing I really want is so they really make you tremble.

[Zack]

Don't know why I didn't remember this before.

There was one monster in the FPS gaming genre that truely made me tremble. It wasn't the cyberdemon. Wasn't Hitler, nor Shub Niggurath nor Chthon nor Makron. Heck, it wasn't even by id.

Valve's Nihilanth was the freakiest thing I have ever seen. For those who have not seen the final boss of Half-Life, lemme tell you about him. (But if you don't want to be spoiled, skip the next two paragraphs!)

You enter the final level in Xen, the dimension of the aliens who have barged onto Earth. Everything around you is completely black, and you are standing on the first of several platforms leading to a very large rock. With the low gravity and the aide of the long jump module, you hop across the floating platforms and through the teleport on the rock. Okay, now where's Nihilanth? Look up. This gigantic thing looks kind o like a deformed infant...its yard-long claws and egg-shaped head are a few features among many. Shooting at it does nothing. It can only be weakened after shooting out the three or four health restoration boxes glowing on the walls. Then Nihilanth's head literally opens up and you can use an air pod to jump inside and blast the lantern-type object that might be his brain. His death is quite big. This entire process is very hard, as the room is big and hard to travel through.

The scariest part, though, is Nihilanth's weapons. He can shoot out streams of plasma balls that take out huge chunks of your health, but that's not terrifying. His other attack is...teleporters. He shoots HUGE heet-seeking teleporter balls at you! Hiding is very hard, and the glow and eerily humming sound of the teleporter is what really scares me as I'm looking the other way. Each time you get teleported you are sent to one of three consecutive areas. The third includes a large, misty pool with an Icthyosaur, Half-Life's menacing shark. Known for my fear of sharks, I think Valve designed this game specifically to freak me out. Gad!

So that's Nihilanth, the monster that really makes you tremble :)

--Zack

[This message has been edited by Zack (edited 06-10-2000).]

[King_Ralph]

I see what you mean, zack by there is no scarier enemy then the facehugger from AvP. Small, fast, kills you in one hit and makes a horrible noise.
Let me tell you, once I could heard one around the corner. I sweated like a pig. My hand tremble so much I couldn't even hold the mouse. Now, normally I would just run out there and with my eyes closed (because the shock of it jumping on my face would nearly kill me) and let it kill me. But instead this time, I was so petrified, I just exited the game. Even though I would have to start the whole level again, I couldn't handle the pressure. It took me about a week to get myself to attempt that level again.

I know it may sound stupid but really, I was that scared.

And I love that game for being able to do that to me!

[Zack]

I guess the pack of underwear that was included in the box was useful? :)

--Zack

"Aliens Vs. Predator -- A game so scary, we even included a free pair of underwear."

[King_Ralph]

Sometimes I had to remind myself to go to the bathroom before playing that game. http://www.NEWDOOM.com/ubb/smile.gif

[twisted]

I agree with Zack totally. When I saw Half-Life's final boss, Nihilanth, I was like "Holy s**t!" That monster had everything that made a great boss. The player had to use a lot of strategy in order to beat it, it's appearance was creepy, it mumbled eerie things, and it was just plain freakish. It took me many tries to beat it, but I finally did. Anyways, I hope to see a final boss like that in the New Doom.

-twisted



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Patrick 'twisted' Hardy
News Updates & Forums Moderator
http://www.newdoom.com

[Phoebus]

Eww, I highly disagree; that whole Xen episode in Half-Life was very poorly realized, reverted the gameplay into annoying jumping 'puzzles', and ultimately drug the game down from greatness . . . :-/

------------------
William Mull
NEWDOOM.com (http://NEWDOOM.com)
VoyagerEliteForce.com (http://VoyagerEliteForce.com)
RuneNews.com (http://RuneNews.com)
Soldier-of-Fortune.com (http://Soldier-of-Fortune.com)
Raven-Games.com (http://Raven-Games.com)
HereticII.com (http://HereticII.com)
HeXenWorld.NET (http://HeXenWorld.NET)
More to come!

[King_Ralph]

I agree with wmull. When I saw the the boss of half-life i thought it was just a big baby that turned out wrong.
It was boring to beat. Even on hard I didn't see the challenge. Just destroy the three crystal things and then keep moving and shoot at it with whatever you have.

[Zack]

You guys gotta admit...those eerie mumbling voices 'we see you we'll be seeing you' or something like that...those were pretty freaky in Xen. :)

--Zack

[Doom_Dude]

Well, i have to agree that, that ugly, wrinkled, floatin', plasma pukin', just sittin there, floatin, hunk a blubber, nihilastic whatever sucked. Where the fragg did they come up with such a borin' end boss for Half~Life!!!! Even the end boss for Sin was much cooler. At least that thing came at ya like a demonic troll on acid, and thats the way it should be! The end boss should make ya strafe, retreat, hit the dirt and run again. It should make ya sweat and give ya the creeps all at the same time. It should be hard ta kill yet not impossible as long as ya keep movin'.

Yet what is the creepiest monster? Is it a cyberdemon with all its brute force or some little creeper like the Half~Life headcrab or the Hexen II spider. Yeah ,if ya don't like spiders go play Hexen I. Though the puzzles sucked in Hexen II, the monsters we're pretty cool. If any of you dudes never played Hexen II, ya should pick it up just to check out two of the coolest monsters ever : the werejaguar and werepanther. Those things come outta the shadows in a roar, with serrated longswords flashin in your face. They jump high in the air and do summersaults. They run along rooftops and skid, stirrin up dust. During combat they throw their heads back and roar . When they do this all attacks just bounce off them. I ain't a big Hexen II fan but those cats are really well done and deserve a look. But beware the puzzles if you pick it up, cause some of them are extremely puzzling.

The New Doom or whatever they call it is gonna be cool. All the old monsters are cool. Ya just can't beat the Doom critters when it comes down to monsters. The Archvile is the best, with it's power to ressurect the dead and that burnin' fire blast is cool.

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile.

[Zack]

Good monsters should 'work together' ...meaning that they can all have a completely different appearence and versions of attack, and as long as they are balanced okay and not all placed in rooms too much or too wackily...MAP32 in Plutonia was, imo, pretty stupid (8 cyberdemons!?)

--Zack

[Doom_Dude]

Right you are Zack , that monsters should work together . Impressive is the AI of the marines and black ops of Half~Life . The fact that they move together as a squad , jump into adjacent doorways to reload weapons and to run away when a grenade comes sailin' towards them , is cool . Will we ever see Doom monsters acting with such AI ? Not likely to see anything like that in the New Doom , but maybe in Doom 4 or some far off game called Doom Forever or somethin' .

The monsters in Doom work well together in a pack sorta way and that in itself is cool . Its also quite a laugh to get them fighting one anouther in a big melee of groaning and chewin' .

The 8 cyberdemons in that one level , i thought was not so bad as some of the user created levels that featured as many or more cybers plus 3 shotgun shells and little else .

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile .

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 06-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Doom_Dude (edited 06-14-2000).]

[King_Ralph]

So how about this time the cyberdemon is about 30 times bigger then it was and it takes ages to kill. Also his rocket launcher now does the explosion of the redeemer of unreal tournament. Now that would be tough and fun!

So you're in an open out area with lots of volcanoes and huge rocks. Then there is this massive volcano in the very centre of the level. When you get a bit close to this, you see this huge cyberdemon slowly coming out. He then does a massive roar lasting for quite a while. While he's doing all this you have to run or he'll simply blow you into bits with his redeemer/rocket launcher. In order to survive you have to get cover behind a huge rock or a volcano. In order to beat him, you've got to find the bfg that one of your dead mates had dropped around there. Now in another topic I mentioned how the bfg should be more like quake 2's one and not like quake 3 arena's. It should also be more powerful so when you fire it you go flying back. So when you pick it up you hear yourself saying, "it's pay back time" and you have to fire all ammo that's left in the gun at him but you still might have to use some of your other big weapons to finish him off. While you're firing at him, you have to make sure he doesn't get you first with his redeemer.

When he's finally down, don't bother thinking that you'll be able to take his redeemer off him as it's five times the size of your body. http://www.newdoom.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Zack]

Nah. The cyberdemon is, sadly, too old, and would actually be better off as a minor enemy in the new Doom. We need new bosses, new surprises. More variety in the appearances of former humans (more realistic...this is all-new technology, remember).

The volcanos sound okay, I guess, but a 30x bigger Cyberdemon!? That's just insane :) No fun in that...

--Zack

[King_Ralph]

Well, this could be one of many bosses in doom but fine...my idea sucks...

[Zack]

Listen, I'm sorry, but the Cyberdemon's six and a half years of fame and reign are over. He was once a great boss. But even in Thy Flesh Consumed (this was created AFTER Doom II, but is a prequel to it, so no more confusion here) the Cyberdemon began to make too many appearances. He was no longer since regarded as a boss or lord. Today's skilled doomers are able to blow off the Cyberdemon's head in less than a minute, no matter the level. Some have even managed to pop the lord open with no weapons at all, just a fist! A cyberdemon that is 30x its normal size is just, well, a lame idea.

When the Hell Knight was created as a weaker of the Hell brothers, the other being the Baron of Hell (in some cases, the Hell Prince, and all of this just contributes to the midieval quality of the game...) I thought that the Knight was a very clever enemy. The Baron of Hell was a neat monster and was not exagerated too much, did not become trite as fast as the cyberdemon, if at all. That is why the Hell Knight was a great creation.

A Two-Hundred-Foot Cyberdemon, on the other hand, well...see?

Any new bosses should be completely original in the new Doom, nothing based on the other enemies except for the Satanic and demonic appearance. And if future technology allows for it, it should literally give off a sweaty, zoological odor :)

--Zack

[twisted]

I think id will reach a happy medium. If you had all the old monsters in the game, it just seems uncreative and boring. However, if you have some old monster cameos that wouldn't be as bad. I want a game that is fresh, not repetitive and already done. The NEW DOOM needs to set another standard in the FPS genre and be completely original.

-twisted

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Patrick 'twisted' Hardy
News Updates & Forums Moderator
http://www.newdoom.com

[Zack]

Another concern about using all the old monsters is that it would be very hard to convert them all into 3D models. We've all seen some nice attempts, but all in all the fan-made MD2s of the Doom monsters kinda stink.

You can't have polygonal models built from real-life clay models using a light-pen (or whatever)...And obviously, using sprites with today's technology would look kind of ugly.

So here's hoping the New Doom will have a great new modeling system, something like 3d particle-assembled models or similar!

--Zack

[King_Ralph]

My idea didn't have to be cyberdemon. It could look completely different but the point I was really trying to make was that in games there have never been really big bosses. They sometimes seem big but when you get up close you see that they are quite small. The cyberdemon took many rockets to defeat. Does that equal the size of it? NO! The reason why I chose a cyberdemon in my idea was because it's difficult to be able to describe a new monster in a forum.

I thought that the hell knight was lame. Id couldn't be bothered to come up with a fresh monster so they got the baron of hell, made him weaker and changed its colour.
Now that's very lame and I don't see how you could think that was good.

[Zack]

Because, while retaining the monster balance, the Hell Knight adds a lot more variety! A 30x-as-big cyb does NOT keep balance. Flat on his face, FOOM.

Anyway, there have too been hugeass monsters: Nihilanth, Gonarch (kinda), Makron (from Q2), Chthon (from Q1), and the Icon of Sin. Also were those two mid-game HUGE mofos in Q2, the flying bug-like mommy and the huge Tank daddy. All their appearances were big.

--Zack

[This message has been edited by Zack (edited 06-17-2000).]

[King_Ralph]

I've met them all and I really think they are small. Not joking. And what do you mean balance? If you see a big monster, you use your head instead of just firing like mad. Creep past it or run.

[King_Ralph]

Oh, and chthon was actually quite big but it didn't move around properly so it don't count.

[Doom_Dude]

Talkin about big , didn't you dudes fight that big mutant boss in the end of Sin ???

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile .

[CRETE]

Do you think that like monsters should be able to kill each other when they fight?

Do you think monsters should fight each other at all? I always loved setting em up to dothat. hehe

-Viva La Resistance

[King_Ralph]

I think some enemies should hate each other all the time and fight even if you're not there. Maybe on one level you arrive in the middle of huge battle between these two races.

[CRETE]

That reminds me of that aserisk level in DOOM2.
I think it was level 8. Youd walk into that room with the cyberdemon and all the hellknights and the cyberdemon would blast one shot then you had yerself one hell of a war.

-Viva La Resistance

[Doom_Dude]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS ! I love setting up a bunch of imps and chaigunners into a fraggin' melee ! Hold back and watch the carnage , hehe !

Demons are chaotic beings that are always in conflict . Hell , if you were a Baron of Hell and some stupid Imp shot you in the ass with a ball of red crap , you'd get very peeved and kill the puny twit in a instant .
Anyways this is a id tradition ! They gotta put it into the New Doom ! I hope .

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile .

[CRETE]

'Member th' times when, like you'd all be playin Quake an' those swordy guys would be all like "MMMMRRR?" and then you'd get a low guard to shoot at 'em so they'de be all like "SHRIiiNGGGG" an' they'd go chop 'im up?
That was awesome.

-Viva La Resistance

[JoeCosman]

one small comment to Zack's post about models that suck in the TCs of doom:

I do that for a living. its up to the artist as to the quality of the models, not the software. so run out and get a Modeling package(something like Milkshape3D) and let your imagination go wild.

just remember, if New Doom sucks. we can all make it the way we want with the Quake3 engine.. :-)

back on topic:

I think some of the more creative enemies should be the environment. imagine a wall that could extrude a fleshy tendril and strangle you(or whatever got close.)
or perhaps raising the dead to fight on your side.
we all agree that it should be original, but millions of games want to be original. what do they do?
the same thing, over and over.

[JoeCosman]

a brief note on the cyberdemon in New Doom.....

--
the words gurgled up in a symphony of inhuman pain, "Master, I wish for revenge, replenish me!"

A large limb falls heavily at your feet, the flesh shuddering under the exertion. pistons and gears grind to a halt. the Beast's glowing eyes highlight the artifact in your hand, staring at it as a child would its parent.

the large beast leans forward, the heavy, acrid breath thumps against your chest. the pleading eyes leave red streaks on the back of your eyelids.

"...master...."

your Plasma Gun falls to the ground. the power light fades and winks out. there has to be another way to get past those awful Sentries... time to steel yourself. the decision has been made.

"follow me."

you grit your teeth and hold a steady pace, only offset by the fear of the large creature struggling to keep up with you.

each ragged breath echoes softly back to your ears.

"Master....."
--

[JoeCosman]

what do you think about possesion monsters.

I mean, ones that can drag your soul out of your body and trap it. you must fight your way out of it's grip.

..or for the more experienced gamers, conquer it and use it as a disposeable body, for those 'tough' jobs on the other side.

this kind of reminds me of HalfLife http://www.newdoom.com/ubb/redface.gifpposing force, where one of the beasts attacked you, and if you caught it right, you could use it as a weapon.

[Doom_Dude]

I don't know if i like the possession monster idea . Especially if they be common in the game because that could drive the player crazy , tryin to regain his soul everytime he encounters it . Yet that would be fine for a mid~game boss , perhaps .

Conserning the resurrection of dead enemies : That i'm sorry to say is not original , for 3DO did that trick in Requiem : Avenging Angel . As long as the bodies of your enemies were intact , you could revive them to fight on your side . It was sorta cool to have 10 guys following you around , waiting to get into a big melee .

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The only good Vile is a dead Vile .

[CRETE]

I'm not sure what you mean.
Please go into more detail about posession monsters. I hate Hlflife with a passion and have sworn never to play it.

-Viva La Resistance

[JoeCosman]

ressurection willy nilly is not a good thing.
this would be a one time deal, designed just for a previous boss, just to enhance plot and not boost(or hinder) gameplay. Cyberdemon was such a fearsome and memorable foe in the first Doom, it might be pretty tense having that kind of power on your side

even for just one level.

as for the ressurecting the other beings to fight on your side?
I'm sorry i said it.

possesion monsters kinda stemmed off of an idea I had for an item: a devils eye, which would drag your soul into someone else's body, so you could be Mancubus or any other monster for 30 seconds. just dont frag your comatose body while you fight.

[CRETE]

Joe I am intrigued.
I would like to puchase your brain fro 80 billion dollars. If you are interested in this one time deal please send your brain in a plain brown wrapper to CRETE: PO Box 999 North Kingstown Rhode Island.

-Viva La Resistance

[King_Ralph]

How about a secret level where you are a cyberdemon and there are numerous doomed space marines.

[CRETE]

Are these like zombified space marines or cooperative space marines?
I think we both know the answer SHOULD be zombified. I rest my case.

-Viva La Resistance

[Zack]

Nah, it'd be better if they were cooperative Space marines.

Replying to really old posts that i haven't seen until minutes ago:

yeah, monsters should fight each other, and
CRETE, Map08 had a cyberdemon behind a ton of Barons, but not Hell Knights :)

You didn't really have to get involved in that fight. The trick was to wait until the cyberdemon is either killed by the barons, or until there is a clear path (excluding baron corpses) between you and the cyb. Then you would grab the invulnerability, run across (only now would the rest of the Barons acknowledge your existence) and hit the switch, kill the weakened cyb, and get out of the room.

[CRETE]

Zack I really hope you get as much a kick out of yourself as I get out of myself.
Because frankly, I don't even care what you have to say anymore. I mean first of all you're all like "OH I want the game to be difficult!" and then your all like "OH, look at me, I want coop marines with me.". You go around and tell people that their posts are irrelevant and then you correct me on my knowlege of two 5 year old enemies that are separated by the color of their skin? Wait! Maybe that's it! Maybe you're a racist. Maybe you're trying to keep the hellknight down cuz of the color of his skin.

-Viva La Resistance

[Zack]

*stares blindly*

...yyyess, sweetie, Daddy's a teacher!

[Zack]

Anyway, you don't understand. The question was if you were a CYBERDEMON in a secret level, and you had to fight a bunch of space marines! Sure, then they'd be coop marines, because they are against you! I like coop AI as much as I do Dairy Queen Blizzards with Turd peices.

--Zack

[CRETE]

Zack.
I know what I meant by my own question and that is not what I meant....DECIEVER!


-My Power Be Upon You

[Zack]

So you think that I'm the one always posting irrelevant stuff! Look at you! For the past three or four hours, all you've been talking about is nothing but peeing your pants, masturbating, and coming down here!!

Get a freaking life!

[CRETE]

And I must say it's been so nice of you to hold my hand (among other things) through the whole thing.
Thank you, Zack, You're my hero.

-My Power Be Upon You

[Zack]

Awww, that's so sweet. Just don't kiss me or anything...

[CRETE]

Don't worry about it, Zack.
Anyway, you're the one who'se been licking my face...wierdo.

-My Power Be Upon You

[King_Ralph]

I thought I posted alot of irrelevent crap but Zack, if you like Crete that much...